Setting Well Pressure

[Xfaxman]

Use one of these kits: Constant Pressure Kits – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

I installed this one in June of 2015, love it. :thumbsup:

Screenshot from the Website:

Picture of my tank:

 

[Valveman]

OP - but I have no idea exactly why the lack of air in the tank would cause recycling when there was no water being drawn down.

Most likely you still have a small leak somewhere. But when there is no air in the tank, it will only put out maybe a cup of water before the pump comes back on. Now that you have the proper air charge in the tank, it can deliver 25% of the tanks total volume in water before the pump starts. Like a 20 gallon size tank will now give you 5 gallons of water. So even if you have a cup of water leaking every minute, it will take a long time before the pump comes back on. Come back in an hour or two and see how much the pressure has dropped, and you will be able to tell how much is leaking.

Something is probably wrong with the tank if it lost its air, and it will do it again. I would get a new metal valve stem cap with new rubber washer, to make sure the air isn't just getting out the Schrader fill valve.

But if the air is not getting out the Schrader valve, it is probably leaking through the rubber diaphragm. Every time the pump cycles on and off, the diaphragm goes all the up and all the way down. This stretches the rubber diaphragm and the air pressure on top is being pumped up to 60 and let down to 40, the same way the water is on the under side of the diaphragm.

The more you cycle the pump the more the diaphragm will go up and down, like bending a wire back and forth until you break it. Air get squirted through the cracks in the rubber diaphragm and dissolves into the water and goes away. Next the water will get on top of the diaphragm, and you won't be able to air it up anymore.

Tanks are only made for so many cycles before you need a new one. And unfortunately after you have done this to the tank a time or two, it has caused the pump to have rapid cycles like you first noticed, and now you also need a new pump. Stop the cycling and everything from the pump to the pressure switch last much longer.

 

[beowulf]

Valveman, thank you for the input. I will watch to see what happens now. The tank is about 31 years old so not unexpected that problems may present. It is an 86 gallon tank - prices about $800 for the same brand - but now I see (by watching the videos I posted) that with a cycle stop valve I can have a much smaller tank. Xfaxman just posted photos re how to set one up. Though my set up involves the water entering the tank at the bottom, if I get a new tank and a cycle valve stop at the same time I can buy compatible units.

I have learned a whole lot about wells, pumps, tanks, pressure switches and more. Glad I posted my initial question here. The guys on this site never disappoint.

 

[beowulf]

Xfaxman, thanks so much for the information and testimonial re your experience. As my tank may still have an issue I am going to look into a new smaller tank and a cycle stop valve and work it into the set up you discuss. Because my piping is not currently high enough to have a tank below the cycle stop valve I may have to reconfigure things a bit. One way or another I will make it work.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Xfaxman]

The tank can go above the CSV.

Mine is about a foot away, beside the CSV.

 

[beowulf]

A follow up question for Valveman and Xfaxman, others. All is working fine right now, but if and when I need to replace my tank, I want to do so with a smaller tank and cycle stop valve if suitable. I assume, based on information provided here and my own Internet research follow up, that such would be appropriate to my set up. But to be certain it would work, I want to provide some additional information so I can learn if anything in my set up would disqualify me from a cycle stop valve/smaller tank set up.

My well:
10 GPM Franklin 2 HP pump
450' well with pump set at 425'
At the last check (2006) it was producing about 21 GPM and water was at the very top of the shaft. Right after the well was put in it was just under 13 GPM.
Wells here (Sierra Nevada Foothills) are referred to as hard rock wells (?) - I think meaning most of the shaft is through rock. I have also been told that the increase from 13 to 21 GPM is because fissures have opened up over time to increase the water coming into the shaft.

All of this information may not be relevant to whether a cycle stop valve and small tank would work out, but thought I should be thorough.

So, would this work out for me? Thanks again for any information you can provide.

 

[Valveman]

That is exactly the info needed, and that is a tough application for a CSV. It is typical for an installer to way oversize the pump. That 10 GPM, 2HP pump can lift from as much as 660', and your water level is at zero'. But without a well test the installer didn't know if the water level would stay above say 100', or if it would pull all the way down to 425'. So he just installed a pump that would work from 425', just in case. But if the well is making that much water, I doubt that it is pulling the water down very much at all. Even though the pump is set at 425', it is only lifting from the actual water level. So if the water level stays higher than 100', you could pump the same amount of water with a 3/4HP pump.

What this means to a CSV is that there will be really high pressure in the pipe before the CSV. And the CSV can only handle a normal amount of pressure. The CSV makes the pump think it is in a deeper well, so it pumps less water to match the amount being used at the time. So when you are only using 2 GPM, the CSV has to make the 2HP pump think the water level is at 660', so that pump can only put out the 2 GPM needed. To make the pump think it is lifting from 660', the CSV will make the pressure before the CSV go up to 285 PSI. This is too much for a single CSV and probably too much pressure for the underground pipe.

I also don't think a 10 GPM series pump can put out 21 GPM, even running open flow with a high water level. About 17 GPM is max for a 10 GPM series pump. So you may have a 13 or 15 GPM pump instead, which would have less back pressure when using a CSV.

If it really is a 10 GPM, 2HP, and if your well pipe and underground pipe to the CSV can handle the 285 PSI, we can use two of the CSV1A valves to stair step the pressure down. The first CSV1A would see 285 coming in and reduce it to 150 PSI. The second CSV would see the 150 PSI coming in and reduce it to 50 PSI, which is the CSV set pressure when using a 40/60 pressure switch. Your well pipe will be able to handle the 285 PSI, we would just need to check the underground pipe, or put the CSV's at the well head before the underground pipe. Everything after the CSV will only see the 40 to 60 pressure, and have a constant 50 while using water.

What I would do is use the existing pump to test the well. Double check that 21 GPM number while your at it. After running at full pump capacity for several hours, you will see the actual pumping level of the well. And if that water level stays higher than 100', a 3/4 HP pump would be a much better fit. The 3/4 HP would not have all the extra back pressure like the over sized pump you have, so a regular PK1A with only one CSV would be all you need.

You might want to do this test then wait for the pump to fail before changing it out and switching to a CSV. You will just have to use a 44 gallon size pressure tank that holds 10 gallons of water, and live with the pressure swinging from 40 to 60 all the time until you switch out to a CSV.

 

[beowulf]

Thanks again Valveman!

The information re the pump size and depth, and 10 GPH rating etc. came from the invoice when we replaced the pump/motor in May of 2006. The total well depth came from the paperwork when the well was drilled. The invoice identifies the pump as L10P4GH-04 and the motor as 06G18-14-0999. I don't know if those numbers have any code re HP or are otherwise useful.

I now recall that the 21 GPM well production figure was done when we did a refi and not at the time we had the pump replaced and that was not in 2006 as stated, but likely near that year. The bank wanted a well production test in connection with the loan application and so we had it tested. I had the paperwork once but now unfortunately cannot find the paperwork on that so do not recall how they obtained that 21 GPM figure but I recall the number (actually recall it was 20 3/4 GPH) and recall the tester's comments that the water was at the very top of the shaft. I recall when they drilled the well they found about 3+ GPM at about 120', and more at various levels but I had them keep drilling until they hit the 12+ GPM - and that was based partially on the driller's advice and predictions and cost-benefit analysis.

Your advice regarding waiting for the pump to fail before changing it out and switching to a CSV makes sense to me. As long as things are working well (as now) there is no reason to try to make a CSV work with a less than optimal system for it. It may be that the first thing I need to replace will be the pressure tank (85 Gallon Amtrol) but we will see. The cost for pulling and replacing the pump and motor back in May 06 was just under $1,800 so I can certainly wait until the need arises to do another replacement.

It is nice to know as much as possible about what you have, need and use on rural property, whether that be about a tractor, implements, your tools, or you well and pump, etc. I had the minimum - threshold - knowledge about my well. You have increased my knowledge significantly - and likely for all other readers of this thread - and for that you have my appreciation. Thank you.

 

[turnkey4099]

Yep and that is exactly what a Cycle Stop Valves keeps from happening, hence the name. And your right the old pressure tank only systems are very reliable, as long as you don't run small amounts of water that cause the pump to cycle. And now that there is a way to stop the pump from cycling no matter what you do, pressure tank systems are even more reliable. And I have been using them for 25 years, there is nothing recent about them, or me either anymore.

Short cycling is rapid on/off/on/off. It DOES NOT HAPPEN with a normal system with normal precharge. Running sprinklers will not wear out a pump. In that system, drawing a small amount of water will cause the pump to run only if it is very near cut-in pressure already.

Of course if one were to run 5 or 6 sprinklers at the same time they might start to approach 'short cycling'

If what you believe were true every household in the country would be replacing pumps every few weeks.

 

[turnkey4099]

Yep and that is exactly what a Cycle Stop Valves keeps from happening, hence the name. And your right the old pressure tank only systems are very reliable, as long as you don't run small amounts of water that cause the pump to cycle. And now that there is a way to stop the pump from cycling no matter what you do, pressure tank systems are even more reliable. And I have been using them for 25 years, there is nothing recent about them, or me either anymore.

Questiabout the cycle stop: I knew they existed but have never run into a system using them...yet. Does that not cause the pump to come on when one draws a glass of water? Been meaning to dig into it on google but too lazy.

 

[Valveman]

Short cycling is rapid on/off/on/off. It DOES NOT HAPPEN with a normal system with normal precharge. Running sprinklers will not wear out a pump. In that system, drawing a small amount of water will cause the pump to run only if it is very near cut-in pressure already.

Of course if one were to run 5 or 6 sprinklers at the same time they might start to approach 'short cycling'

If what you believe were true every household in the country would be replacing pumps every few weeks.

According to the motor manufacturers, rapid cycling is usually anything less than 1 minute on and 1 minute off. But they also have a limit of 100 or 300 cycles per day, depending on the size of the pump. A 2HP pump is in the 100 cycles per day list, so that would be no more than about 4 cycles per hour. And that is just to make sure it makes it through the warranty period, not to make it last 20-30 years. I was floored when I found out all pumps are built with planned obsolescence as the major design factor.

Every household in the country is replacing the pump every 7 years on average, because that is how many cycles is built into each pump. Some may last 30 years, but others only last months or even weeks, mostly depending on how they cycle. I think that average maybe even shorter now, as so many pumps are being DIYed. I was told 7 years by pump manufacturers 20-30 years ago.

Whether or not 5-6 sprinklers will cause the pump to cycle, depends on how many sprinklers the pump can supply. If the pump is only large enough to supply 6 sprinklers, then running 6 sprinklers will keep the pump running continuously, which is what they like to do. But if you run any less than 6 sprinklers, the extra water produced by the pump fills the tank and causes the pump to shut off and then continue to cycle on and off. How fast it cycles then depends on how large the tank is. The larger the tank, the slower the cycling, but the longer the pressure swings from low to high, usually 40 to 60.

 

[Valveman]

Questiabout the cycle stop: I knew they existed but have never run into a system using them...yet. Does that not cause the pump to come on when one draws a glass of water? Been meaning to dig into it on google but too lazy.

A CSV will work with any size tank. And the tank size determines how many glasses of water you can draw before the pump starts. It will come on faster with a smaller tank, so in the old days you would want as large a tank as you could get through the door. However, even large tanks do not keep a pump from cycling when using water for longer terms like showers and sprinklers. As was discussed earlier, if you have a tank large enough to make the pump stay on for 1 minute and off for 1 minute, that is 30 cycles per hour when running fewer sprinklers than the pump is made for.

A CSV would keep the pump running continuously no matter if you are using 1,2,3,4,5, or 6 sprinklers, and/or when the shower is on. The water just goes right past the tank to the sprinklers or shower, so the size of the tank is a moot point. Only when you flush a toilet or use a small amount of water will the tank even be used.

The idea of the small 4.5 gallon size tank that only holds 1.2 gallons of water, is that if the CSV eliminates 30 cycles per hour for long term uses like showers and sprinklers, adding back 30 cycles per day for toilet flushes and hand washing still won't cause as many cycles as the old big tank method. Using the CSV with a larger tank kind of gives you the best of both worlds. But the larger tank does keep you from seeing the strong constant pressure for a longer time, and we have found over 25 years that the cycles saved are not worth the added expense and space needed for a larger tank.

 

[ns_in_tex]

If your pump is cycling with the sprinkler system running, maybe, you could just increase the sprinkler orifice size just enough that the pump could not reach cut off pressure. This would stop cycling and keep good pressure for all other appliances.

We installed a 15 year old pump which was given to us, 8 years ago. The electrical run to the pump is 1,465'. The first storage tank & pump controls are 635' from the pump. It has already lasted longer than we expected. Not sure, but suspect the quality of water may have something to do with it.

 

[Valveman]

If your pump is cycling with the sprinkler system running, maybe, you could just increase the sprinkler orifice size just enough that the pump could not reach cut off pressure. This would stop cycling and keep good pressure for all other appliances.

We installed a 15 year old pump which was given to us, 8 years ago. The electrical run to the pump is 1,465'. The first storage tank & pump controls are 635' from the pump. It has already lasted longer than we expected. Not sure, but suspect the quality of water may have something to do with it.

Opening up more sprinklers to use as much water as the pump can produce use to be the only way to keep a pump from cycling when irrigating. But it is hard to make every sprinkler zone the same size and to use enough to keep the pump from cycling. Plus when your sprinklers have the pump maxed out, you have no pressure left for house use. So you have to run sprinklers only during times when the house will not be using water like 2-6 AM.

With a CSV you can match the sprinklers to the yard and not the pump. You can still use a large zone in the back yard. But you can also use a medium size zone in the side yard and a little bubbler zone in the driveway without causing the pump to cycle. Even the largest zone can be 3-5 GPM less than the pump can supply, so you can run sprinklers anytime of day and not starve the house for pressure. Also all the different size zones will run at a constant pressure. That way they can be adjusted to hit the corners exactly every time they go around.

Like I said, depending on how they are used, some pumps will last a long time. But the general method of failure is that they cycle on/off as planned according to the size of the tank until the bladder/diaphragm breaks from bending back and forth. Then the tank is waterlogged and causes the pump to cycle even faster (really rapid cycle) until the pump/motor itself is destroyed and needs to be replaced.

Diaphragms in the tanks and the pumps themselves are designed to survive 5-7 years of average cycling. When you start losing air in the tank and the cycling rate increases, the life of the pump/motor is close at hand.

 

[Xfaxman]

I added a pressure gauge to the input of the hot water heater so I could see that everything was copacetic from inside the house:

View attachment 535214

Why do you want to know the inlet water pressure for your hot water tank?
Would you suspect it to be different than your cold water pressure throughout the building, or are you just trying to confirm what your overall house pressure is?
If you turn on any faucet, and the flow is weak, you will know that you have a pressure problem.
I can't see that reading the house inlet pressure is going to give you much useful pump/tank information.

The gauge is on the other end of the line from the tank at the well, that is outside a long way away. It shows me the pressure in the pressure tank and that everything is working right. If the pressure slowly drops when we aren't using water, there is a problem, like a leaking toilet flapper, fill valve or outside hydrant.

I also have a light at the well, that can be seen from the house, it comes on when the pump runs.

Yesterday I checked the pressure gauge a few minutes after the pump had shut off. It was 4 pounds lower than normal. I watched the gauge and could see the pointer moving down very slowly.

I went out to the well, turned off the valves to the house and to the barn. The gauge on the pressure switch held steady, meaning the anti-drain back valve in the well was good. Turned on the valve to the house, still good, meaning no leaks in the house. Turned on the valve to the barn and the pointer started moving down very slowly. It was 18 degrees out there and the horse water tank was full, so I turned off the valve and went back into the warm house.

 

[turnkey4099]

According to the motor manufacturers, rapid cycling is usually anything less than 1 minute on and 1 minute off. But they also have a limit of 100 or 300 cycles per day, depending on the size of the pump. A 2HP pump is in the 100 cycles per day list, so that would be no more than about 4 cycles per hour. And that is just to make sure it makes it through the warranty period, not to make it last 20-30 years. I was floored when I found out all pumps are built with planned obsolescence as the major design factor.

Every household in the country is replacing the pump every 7 years on average, because that is how many cycles is built into each pump. Some may last 30 years, but others only last months or even weeks, mostly depending on how they cycle. I think that average maybe even shorter now, as so many pumps are being DIYed. I was told 7 years by pump manufacturers 20-30 years ago.

Whether or not 5-6 sprinklers will cause the pump to cycle, depends on how many sprinklers the pump can supply. If the pump is only large enough to supply 6 sprinklers, then running 6 sprinklers will keep the pump running continuously, which is what they like to do. But if you run any less than 6 sprinklers, the extra water produced by the pump fills the tank and causes the pump to shut off and then continue to cycle on and off. How fast it cycles then depends on how large the tank is. The larger the tank, the slower the cycling, but the longer the pressure swings from low to high, usually 40 to 60.

I question that 7 year figure. My pump should have been replaced twice already according to that. It is istill going strong. The community well one Running thee small acreages was old when I moved in and went another almost 20 before it was replaced. In fact I have worked on zero wells, all pressure tank ones and never had to replace a pump. I haven't even heard of any neighbors replacing them.

 

[turnkey4099]

A CSV will work with any size tank. And the tank size determines how many glasses of water you can draw before the pump starts. It will come on faster with a smaller tank, so in the old days you would want as large a tank as you could get through the door. However, even large tanks do not keep a pump from cycling when using water for longer terms like showers and sprinklers. As was discussed earlier, if you have a tank large enough to make the pump stay on for 1 minute and off for 1 minute, that is 30 cycles per hour when running fewer sprinklers than the pump is made for.

A CSV would keep the pump running continuously no matter if you are using 1,2,3,4,5, or 6 sprinklers, and/or when the shower is on. The water just goes right past the tank to the sprinklers or shower, so the size of the tank is a moot point. Only when you flush a toilet or use a small amount of water will the tank even be used.

The idea of the small 4.5 gallon size tank that only holds 1.2 gallons of water, is that if the CSV eliminates 30 cycles per hour for long term uses like showers and sprinklers, adding back 30 cycles per day for toilet flushes and hand washing still won't cause as many cycles as the old big tank method. Using the CSV with a larger tank kind of gives you the best of both worlds. But the larger tank does keep you from seeing the strong constant pressure for a longer time, and we have found over 25 years that the cycles saved are not worth the added expense and space needed for a larger tank.

Thanks, so the CSV does not cause the pump to run every time a faucet is opened. The pressure tank, no matter how small is sort of a buffer?

 

[turnkey4099]

If your pump is cycling with the sprinkler system running, maybe, you could just increase the sprinkler orifice size just enough that the pump could not reach cut off pressure. This would stop cycling and keep good pressure for all other appliances.

We installed a 15 year old pump which was given to us, 8 years ago. The electrical run to the pump is 1,465'. The first storage tank & pump controls are 635' from the pump. It has already lasted longer than we expected. Not sure, but suspect the quality of water may have something to do with it.

I like that - real shade tree mechanic thinking. I can't see any reason it wouldn't work excpet all the fidling around getting it right. Installing a CSV would probably be easier. I don't know what the cost but it shouldn't be much over a standard switch.

 

[buickanddeere]

To reduce the number of start-stop cycles I set the pressure band as wide as the switch would allow and still function reliably. Starts at about 20psi and shuts off at 55psi. The low end pressure is noticeable while in the shower or watering the flowerbeds.

 

[Valveman]

To reduce the number of start-stop cycles I set the pressure band as wide as the switch would allow and still function reliably. Starts at about 20psi and shuts off at 55psi. The low end pressure is noticeable while in the shower or watering the flowerbeds.

I see that a lot and it is a certain clue that cycling is a problem. Not only is the low pressure noticeable in the shower and sprinklers, but you are over-stretching the diaphragm in the tank, which greatly shortens its life. Plus the fact that you notice the low pressure in the shower and sprinklers means the pump is still cycling.

In the last 50 years I have sold dozens of different brands of pumps. That 7 year average life was told to me by several of those manufacturers. For every pump that last 30 years, there is another that didn't last 30 days.

At one time I was replacing close to 2000 pumps a year. One year I made note of the date codes as I was loading the old pumps to haul off for scrap metal. Out of 2000 pumps of all makes and sizes, the 7 year average was almost perfect.