Shallow well pump performance?

[the old grind]

I'm not happy with the flow & pressure of my shallow well and pump. Where I notice the loss of flow and pressure is when hosing off a tractor or when filling the Maytag. I'm always good until the bladder tank is empty, and then flow slows to a trickle (my terms). Showering is not a problem, as my WH and/or pump can cycle on and off well ahead of the low-flow shower head I use. (often feel the water warming as I stand there ...) This has been the norm since I bought the place and after replacing pump & tank 10 yrs ago, WH <5 ago, so IMO it's the system and not any component that sets my limits.

Here's what I have:
Shallow well with crock/cistern ~50 ft from acres of pond, and nothing but sand anywhere near my former gravel pit property.
3/4" copper on all lines serving more than one fixture, and 1/2" to each per std practice.
Sta-Rite FNC-L 1/2 hp pump, 30-50 switch, in a 'pump room' indoors with pump on top of tank.
All 1 1/4" lines from pit to pump.
Bladder tank (~30 gal physical size, IIRC 12 gal draw down) pressure is checked yearly and hasn't needed topped-up more than a lb or two.
Whole house filter that when element is changed makes no obvious improvement in flow/pressure.
Low o'all demand in daily use, washer, kit sink, shower, and once in a while the hose to rinse a machine or fill a bucket.

What I like to have is 40-50 psi (regulated, metal 'indoor' CSV, or similar) and better flow o'all, but ... as I understand it a SW pump can't be counted on to put out much pressure regardless of head. (8'-12' max suction, <10' vert, <60' to furthest fixture)

I'm considering upgrading to a 3/4 hp pump, and not sure it wouldn't take 'forever', like my Sta-Rite, to deliver the last 10 psi to tank. I'd settle for 40psi constant if flow would keep up with anything besides the shower.

Right now I'm looking at a Hallmark (ebay) and a Red Lion (Amazon), both 3/4hp shallow well models. GPM claims are wide for these and others, and of course there's a trade-off between flow and pressure. Cost is of little matter, and flow demand won't be much more than current use. 'Quiet' would be a big plus, as my house is usually silent when the fridge isn't running or the HVAC making it's usual dim roar.

Please comment if you think I could get 2-3 gpm at 40 PSI with only a pump change (to 3/4hp, w/CSV) or if there's something I'm missing in planning the upgrade. As always, digression from topic is fine, esp if we learn something. Thanks, guys. tog

 

[Valveman]

That pump has a max pressure of 69 PSI. So even from 8-12' of suction you should still be able to turn the pressure switch up to 40/60. It will take even longer to fill the pressure tank (3-5 minutes) but it will give you more pressure for the lower flow demands. It will sort of work like it has a CSV as when working that close to the max pressure the pump will not shut off when using more than 1-2 GPM. If hosing off the tractor or filling the Maytag uses more than 4 GPM the pressure will drop off quickly, as that is more than the 1/2HP can do. Only a larger pump can help with demands more than 4 GPM. A larger pump is when a CSV could help you as it will let you install as large of a pump as you need or think you need, and the CSV will make it work like a small pump when small amounts of water are being used.

 

[Egon]

Go with a jet pump system if you wish to keep pump in the present location.

Ideal would be submersible pump.

 

[the old grind]

According to county records for the well drilled next door in '95, there's a 60' layer of impermeable clay that creates the high water table in our nabe. Pond is several acres, and when mined for sand the guys just moved aside when they hit clay. Of course my avg depth is ~6'. :laughing:

Shallow wells are no longer allowed in my county, but I have no fear of over-drawing the 'crock', ... not yet anyway. If I were to drill there would be a 1 1/2 hp or so submersible going in. (thanks, Egon!)

Most wells around here are drilled to 170' or so and submersible pumps typically set at ~ 1/2 that depth. My previous 180' well and jet pump, !/2 mi down the road, had a static level at 6'-8' with jet, screen, foot valve at 65' down (I changed 'point' once), and single-hose pitless adapter. btw Jet pump ran out of pressure when the tank emptied there too. (Craftsman 3/4hp, FRP housing, 30-50 sw)

With a 30-50 switch on the Sta-Rite I'm pretty ok until the tank empties, so I might be happy with 40-45 PSI from the regulator or CSV if flow keeps up. Looks like the 'CSV1A' would be my pick if I go that way. (will probably try it)

I'm ready to go for the pump, and I like reviews of the 3/4 hp Hallmark that say it's 'quiet'. The same is said about the 3/4 hp Red Lion, so I only have to toss that coin. Cost is secondary to compliments, so can anyone give a good reason to go with the lower priced Hallmark. The Red Lion is a top rated pump with most suppliers and looks like a sure winner.

Thanks for the help, guys! Further comments are welcome, so chime in as you wish. tog

 

[buickanddeere]

Submersible pump designed for shallow application and a constant pressure variable frequency drive.

 

[the old grind]

Thanks! Don't know how to tap whichever source I'm working from, either point or other setup as is probable here. I'd need help with a new well to be sure, and I won't ask a pro to do what's banned by county code.

I should mention that drilling deep and using a submersible is not far away, just not this year .. and for time's sake above other considerations. So I hear ya guys, loud and clear on what's best. There's plenty of room to get a rig in here when the time comes. Oh, also .. IMO it'll take a lot longer to choose a 'best' submersible pump/brand/model, and that has spawned this alternative quest in the first place.

Now, I'm pondering whether a supposedly 12GPM or 16GPM ('shallow well') to cover heads and frictional losses is better. Say I want 4GPM steady and set my controls for 45 PSI. The pumps I'm considering have TEFC motors vs the ODP style of my current Sta-Rite. If I understand the fluid dynamics right the pump should unload when stalled and not overheat. At worst, am I only wasting electricity to go bigger?

Red Lion RJS-75-PREM 67 Premium Cast Iron Shallow Well Jet Pump - - Amazon.com

 

[Valveman]

Different size pumps have about the same efficiency. You just get more water faster with the larger pump. But when using a larger pump to do a smaller job it will be a little less efficient. It won't make much difference and certainly doesn't override the convenience of being able to do so.

 

[buickanddeere]

Using a submersible pump designed for 600feet in a 25foot well will waste power due to the extra pump stages.

 

[Valveman]

Using a submersible pump designed for 600feet in a 25foot well will waste power due to the extra pump stages.

Sorry for the confusion. I was talking about a larger volume pump not a higher head pump. No you would not want a high head pump in a low head well. But you can have different volume pumps from any depth. Pumps come in 5,7,10,15,20,25 GPM and so on. You can get a 25 GPM pump and use it at 5 GPM, but you cannot make a 5 GPM pump deliver 25 GPM.

 

[the old grind]

Well, I ordered the 3/4hp Red Lion based on reviews and seller recommendations. (RJS-75-PREM 602207, service/warranty by Franklin)


There are others (Goulds, Meyer, Sta-Rite) that promise higher pressure outputs and/or GPM, but I can replace this if it doesn't work out.

I won't be happy with pressure in the low 30's so some kind of pressure regulation would be nice. Are there other options I don't know about, or is CSV the best starting point? I'm sure that v-man would say so, but lets hear from whoever has experience with with shallow wells. Otherwise, it's just a matter of choosing the right valve for this setup.

Trust me to come screaming in here if it doesn't work as promised. t o g

 

[Valveman]

That pump is not much better than the one you have. With a 12' lift it has a max pressure of 60 PSI and only delivers 4.9 GPM at 50 PSI. So anything over 4.9 GPM is still going to run at very low pressure. And you will need to stay with a 30/50 pressure switch setting. A 1HP with a higher pressure jet like the J10S would have a max pressure of 72 PSI, which would let you run a 40/60 switch, and would deliver up to 15 GPM at 50 PSI. If you want more pressure and volume you will need a pump that can deliver more.

 

[the old grind]

Y'know, I did see those pumps with much higher pressure ratings, but surfing for reviews got confusing and I lost tract of some of the pressure/flow charts. Well, I may have pumps left over after trying a few. :laughing: 30-50 switch is fine when the tank isn't empty and I'm going on the pump alone. Since flow means more to me than ultimate pressure, I'm still optimistic.

I'd like to think I can get 3-4 GPM at say 45 PSI, so this could be a test case to share with others. btw, my hose bib is at most 12-14 above pond/static level and run from the pump to nozzle on a 50' hose would be just over 120'. We'll see what frictional losses do to attenuate that.

First tractor I hose down will be my trial, probably a week from now. Fingers crossed, and thanks!
t o g

 

[speedbump]

From what I'm hearing, your pump isn't getting the water it needs to keep up with your garden hose which can use as much as ~10 gpm. Lift, friction and pipe size all enter into this problem. Your shower obviously doesn't use enough water to make the pump starve so it cycles. The garden hose is overcoming the pumps output so when the tank empties, the pump has to cover the load and can't keep up. If the pump can't get enough water because of several conditions, it won't matter how much horse power you buy. You can't buy a better pump than a Sta Rite. At least before Pentair bought them out.

 

[the old grind]

Thanks for that. I couldn't have bought a lower-rated Sta-Rite than I did, tho' it's been a good performer up to its limitations. I have little doubt that my well will keep up with a higher flow pump until proven otherwise, and I'll soon find out if it will. Fingers crossed, and keep up with the comments and suggestions.

Here's my workspace:

 

[speedbump]

That same pump was called an FSCH here in Florida. The letters stood for Florida Special C = 1/2hp H = High head. They were always a great deal for the money and they were a very good little pump.
Ten gallons per minute was tops for them but they would work well on a small household with a shallow well with a not too deep water level.
I would get a 4" X 1-1/4" well seal to put in the top of that well though.

 

[the old grind]

IIRC, Sta-Rite's SND-L 3/4 hp was a top candidate when searching. My FNC-L is loud, and I might shouldn't have assumed they'd both be similarly so. My local dealer does have the SND-L in stock, if not competitively priced.

We discussed his familiarity with my area and year of build (early '70s), and concern was that I might overdraw. We hashed out that at 40' from ~18 ac/ft (3+ ac surface of the pond that was mined for sand) the large 'stone pit' between the house and pond is indeed a 'crock' well as is/was typical in my nabe. (2 RR ties x 2 RR ties, marble-sized stones from surface to several feet down)

This might all become moot if I mess something up and decide to drill for a submersible. My guy was familiar with poor water quality at depth around here, if not that we're at the West end of a high arsenic area this side of Lake Huron. I plan to play around with the SW pump(s) at least until Springtime. That should give me time to find/vet a driller for a submersible.

Speedbump, I really appreciate the kind of help that gets me surfing for the detail bits. :thumbsup: Thank you! t o g

 

[speedbump]

Where are you up there? Somewhere near East Tawas? My Brother-in-law has a cabin in South Branch. His well is way over 100' deep and has a sub in it. I drilled a few wells in the Harrison area up there years ago.

One thing to remember when looking for a pump. Make sure the motor is totally separate from the pump. It should be the old style, C-Flange or Square flange. Nothing that has fins on it. All the imports I have sadly became familiar with don't hold up much past the years warranty. And if the motor gets noisy, the two I mentioned have "REAL" ball bearings not bushings. Take it to a motor shop and have the bearings replaced.

 

[the old grind]

I'm quite a bit South of the Tawas's in the Flint River plain, and just West of I-75. My pump/tank is mere feet from the indoor distribution panel and will be wired for 220v. Motor is square flange, TEFC, CSIR, and draws 7-some amps at 220v. Maximum lift will be 10-12' 24/7/365 if I don't overdraw the crock. (TDH from pump to my furthest use will be just shy of 120' including 50' of hose length.)

I just dialed the hotline (Franklin, it turns out) and asked a tech guy about the bearings. He wasn't familiar with the new line's motor specs and did some digging so we'd both know. He found the OEM part # for motor bearings and it crosses to a specific ball bearing. So far so good.

When you say 'finned' I presume you meant TEFC, and I know there can be heat problems internally that the external fan doesn't account for when cycling on and off. Internal insulation is apparently a higher 'class' than we'd expect with an ODP motor, so likely to account for it. That said, I'd be surprised if it isn't an import. If I were to replace the Red Lion before drilling for a 'sub' I'd try Sta-Rite's SND-L (ODP, btw) after 14 or so years of unfailing, if weak, output from the 1/2 hp FNC-L.

Y'know, I feel kind of special being challenged to parse every detail, but shouldn't be surprised because this is TBN. IMO I couldn't find a better place to seek guidance. Thanks, again!
jon

 

[speedbump]

Genesee County? I"m not sure which motor you are saying is TEFC, the A.O. Smith isn't but maybe your talking about your new pump. Your A.O. Smith should have 6203 bearings front and back and they are the most popular bearings known to man. What pump has a Franklin motor on it? Franklin is a popular sub motor but now a well known jet motor. Sta Rite never used them that I'm aware of. Of coarse A.O. Smith is now Regal which is not of this country. And so it goes, all the name brands are owned by one of two companies, only a few hold outs and Sta Rite unfortunately wasn't one of them.

 

[the old grind]

Yes, Genessee County, home of the recent Flint water quality crisis.

Tech said '6023' bearings, so does one of us have our numbers transposed?

Seems that Sta-Rite's motors are ODP frame and Red Lions typically TEFC. I read somewhere that Franklin has incorporated Little Giant some years ago, and Red Lion is another product under their umbrella for warranty and service. btw, Ive heard that Franklin 'sub' motors 'aren't what they used to be' and some makers could be moving away from their dominant use therein.

Ratings for both my choice brands (S-R, RL) are right up there among the best.