Shallow well pump performance?

[jaotguy]

6203 .... the tech has it transposed

 

[speedbump]

Jaotguy beat me to it. I've bought thousands of them over the years. Yup, Sta Rite uses ODP motors. If Red Lions motors are TEFC, they are imports. That same pump has been sold under a bunch of brand names. That and you can't use a 1/2" or 9/16" wrench on them.
Franklin and the pump manufacturers had it out a few years back which resulted in Franklin buying out Jacuzzi. They now make their own pump. They also cut off Pentair and ITT so they had to scramble and find a new motor manufacturer. They now come in on a boat. I don't know that Franklin's quality has dropped off any, but their prices have sure went up.

 

[the old grind]

UPDATE:

First of all, the 3/4 hp Red Lion motor is: 'Made in China' (the whole pump is, and boxed there, too), it's ODP, and it's very quiet compared to the Sta-Rite's 1/2 hp AO Smith. I kinda wish I'd taken SPL readings before and after, but didn't do a 'before'. :duh:

We installed on Monday, so I've had a few days to see how things are going, use-wise. We put gauges on the pump itself and on the tank side, if not placed ideally within the connection pattern. Foot valve seems to be ok, as there was water in the poly input line nearly to its top when we switched over. ~Two quarts of water and one priming was all it took to get the air moved past the filter and pressure/flow going.

50 psi shut-off takes 8-some minutes from 0 psi showing on both gauges, and ~5 1/2 min when the tank drops to 30 to restart. I left the pump wired for 230v and ran 8' or so of 14ga to a 10a double-trip breaker at the panel. If you can't see it, the pressure switch line is re-routed to the back (output) side of the valve vs on the pump housing.



As you can see, I also added a CSV with hopes of setting the output pressure at around 40 psi. The 'procedure' says to adjust while flowing at a 2-3 gpm rate, but I didn't make that effort. I did turn the adjustment screw in while the tank was filling and saw nothing change on either gauge for several turns. At some point the pump's sound got loud as though cavitating. Pump pressure dropped to near zero, while tank pressure stayed. I quickly backed out the screw till the sound quieted and pump pressure returned to ~45, where it always seems to hover when running, plus another full turn out of the screw. AFAIK it's working as I wanted w/o knowing the exact pressure/flow when in use.

At no time is cooling air from the motor more than barely warm to the touch, the cooling slots actually feel about as warm as the back of my other hand, even at the end of the 8 min run if I forget & leave the breaker 'off' after tinkering and draw it all down. Also seems only then that I see (hear) the pump running at all vs at random during the day. During any part of a run cycle the tank-side gauge goes quickly to ~40 or so and hovers, while the pump-side gauge hovers ~45.

My best test so far is filling the washer, ... what we'd used at first to burp air & see flow at startup. I'd guess the fill time will be quite a quite bit shorter, as the flow was gushing vs trickling when the gauges showed ~20 (vs ~10 previously) and I was running on the pump alone. Terramite and the NH are getting muddy on a concrete-pad job next door, and I'll get one home to spray-off today or tomorrow to see if the system keeps up with the garden hose's nozzle.

If I have something wrong with the CSV setting I have no way of knowing. At this point I'm not too concerned, either, as the performance boost I sought is apparent if not fully vetted. One thing is for sure ... I don't have to hear that noisy older pump anymore. btw, I'll find a use for that somewhere.

I appreciate all comments and questions, hope I cleared some up for other TBN-ers, will post back on how the garden hose test works out.
Thanks, all! t o g

 

[speedbump]

From the run times you stated, the biggest problem you have is well production. It should fill that tank between 30 and 50 lbs in less than a minute if the well produces good.

 

[the old grind]

This is my 3rd shallow well pump. I've had 4 or 5 jet pumps that wouldn't fill a 32/9 gal bladder tank much faster than this one. I could have opted for a two stage pump, or for pressure ratings into the 70's or so, but didn't see the need.

I'd expect a much quicker fill with a 'sub' (multi-stage), but that'd be some time later when this setup tanks and I end up drilling. I understand that flow ratings are offset by the amt of head and frictional losses, but I'm not interested in a heavy draw-down test with a 40+ YO 'crock' (stone pit) well, either.

I'd expect to have air get into my lines if I overdrew the well. If I'm getting the flow I want should I be concerned with total output potential far beyond my use?

btw, pond and ground-water level has varied at most 4' in the 15 yrs I've been at the former sand pit location. Total lift to pump might never have been 10-12' in that time.

 

[speedbump]

You keep mentioning a cistern. Aren't you pulling out of the 4" well in your picture? Or am I confused as to how your getting water? A 1/2hp jet pump with a ten foot lift is capable of 10 gallons per minute. At higher pressures less, but a bladder tank the size of yours should fill in less than a minute from 30 to 50 with no water usage.
You do not need a cycle stop valve with a jet pump. Especially the way yours is behaving. The CSV will probably do more bad than good.

 

[the old grind]

Well-service guys in our area suggest that the ~15' x 15' stone pit between the house & pond (>3 ac) was common in our area when shallow wells were commonly installed. I mentioned only the twp I'm in, and he asked if I was near the South end of J__ road, which terminates <1/4 mi over the fence from my ten. Geology is a result of past glacial activity, so there's nothing but sand to dig through when the mini-BH goes to work.

What may be significant is that the 'pit' is >25' from the pump, closer to 35' if piping into the house is 'squared-off' vs diagonally run. Can I assume it's that long lateral run on the suction side (1 1/4") that reduces draw & thus output? (include that in TDH, no?) Interestingly, I'm not burping as much air from the filter as I did with the older pump. (checking every few days/cycles)

IIRC, the CSV site says that if the pressure adjustment is 'bottomed out' (turned in to highest pressure) the valve will act as a straight pipe vs controlling pressure, but it seems to act the opposite way. It's certainly functioning as a check valve, as gauge differential 'at rest' indicates.) Beginning with the valve seeming to do nothing when adjusted 'out', I didn't do full run/discharge cycles before finding what seems to be a sweet spot of flow/pressure. There was that hiccup when turning the screw toward higher pressure, and that I backed off from, but things work fine so far.

Looking at the gauges, I'm seeing what I hoped to. btw, I use a 2gpm shower head and throttle that back for most of my time in the tub. It has been the only outlet my older pump would catch up with, so not the best source to evaluate from. 'Hose test' today, as promised, and thanks, sb for the help and support. jon

 

[speedbump]

OK, but I am looking at a 4" pipe with an 1-1/4" pipe running down it. Is the 4" pipe just a sleeve to the cistern?

 

[buickanddeere]

That same pump was called an FSCH here in Florida. The letters stood for Florida Special C = 1/2hp H = High head. They were always a great deal for the money and they were a very good little pump.
Ten gallons per minute was tops for them but they would work well on a small household with a shallow well with a not too deep water level.
I would get a 4" X 1-1/4" well seal to put in the top of that well though.

High head? Florida is a low head application

 

[speedbump]

High head? Florida is a low head application

I'm not sure what your referring to. Well depth? Water level? Low head pumps are used mostly for moving water, not making pressure.

 

[buickanddeere]

A pump with several stages is not required for shallow wells. Using a deep well submersible pump in a shallow submersible application just wastes power by churning water through extra pump stages.

 

[speedbump]

I agree, a two or three stage jet pump is not used for shallow well applications unless more pressure is required. Each stage add more pressure. A submersible pump on the other hand is far more efficient than a jet pump. You won't find many new systems installed using jet pumps. Submersible pumps are the norm and have been for a lot of years. The little FSCH I mentioned was a single stage pump with a max pressure of around 60 psi.

 

[the old grind]

All of 2' below floor level the 1 1/4" galv is cemented into the 4" PVC. Aligned with that and ~26' away (outside) is an iron cap, so it seems to lead to a familiar-looking pitless adapter. 12' from that at a right angle is the near corner or the stone pit. It looks like there is nearly 40' of horizontal run to add to vertical suction head and a large column to move with perhaps some frictional loss, too.

Worked till dark yesterday and awaiting the cement truck for next door, so today I should get to hose down the NH and TM to see how pump performance carries to my 'washdown' area. I'd say 130'-140' of total run from the stone pit to the end of the hose if an extra 40' of horiz suction line is considered.

I'll see if I can remove the cap to identify what's in there. Flags here mark the cap, the pit, and where the line comes from house to cap.
View attachment 486469View attachment 486470View attachment 486471View attachment 486472

 

[speedbump]

Your attachments didn't work. The 1-1/4" being inside the 4" sounds like concentric piping to the Pitless. It's not the same hookup as I was familiar with when I lived in Michigan and they required Pitless's and Concentric Piping.

 

[the old grind]

Here I show
1) the pump and iron widget's relative locations on my West side (~ 24' flag to flag),
2) turning to look North, the near flag is also aligned to the pit's corner/edge,
3) the cap/well up close. It's 4" stuff and I had to peel a bit of sod to expose it.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-cbCJ3xW/0/L/i-cbCJ3xW-L.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9SGcHbH/0/L/i-9SGcHbH-L.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-v2tSV2j/0/L/i-v2tSV2j-L.jpg
---------------
edit to get pics to work.

It makes sense to me now that a conventional point below an adapter could be backed up by the ~16 'x 18' pit/cistern a dozen feet away. At most 15' below the cap is that 60' of dense clay, so the tie in would be to assure good flow from what's only above that if drawn on heavily. Pond or no pond, we're on sand and that's the high water table I've been familiar with while living within 1/2 mi of here since '89. That point location would shorten the horizontal draw and the pit help keep it charged.

btw, more of the brush & the tall cherry on top of the pit will be downsized and/or removed soon.

I might be able to pull familiar stuff from the casing to service it.

 

[speedbump]

Your attachments are not working in either post.

 

[the old grind]

Pics fixed, and I get why folks sometimes have trouble uploading them. Ones of the pump/tank were browsed from the chip and posted. With the others I did the same but chose to 'go advanced' to preview the post. The pics didn't work after that. Hmm ...

Anyway, after pulling, screeding, floating, and finishing 7 yds of a 5-slump hours after a cold pour my 'base-grading' machines are still next door.

I should get a real test washing hosing them both down. I'll also start soaking the metal cap, Kroil, Gibbs, or heat & wax. We'll see what's down there, as I'm curious now. t o g

 

[speedbump]

That's not like any Pitless Cap I've ever seen. They usually stick up at least a foot above grade too.

 

[the old grind]

'Washdown Test':

Well, laughing on the 1st machine and with darn good flow as always until the tank drew down (a few mins, gals) I was reduced to a bit stronger trickle than of old. I 'shut off' and went down to see what the gauges were doing. Pump showed just above 40 PSI and the tank just above 20. I turned the valve's adjustment inward a full turn, and pump gauge dropped >10 PSI, so I returned it to the previous setting.

By the time I got back to the hose my pressure/flow had returned rather quickly. I decided to be more sparing with the go-button and went surprisingly far be fore draining the tank again. I'd worked the hose more like a paint sprayer or air blast than like I was watering roses. The difference between new and old setups is less obvious outside than in the laundry, but I did use a high flow nozzle (pretty much WFO) and usually wash down with one with several patterns and that seems to release a fair bit less water.

I'm actually quite happy with results so far, the noticeably faster (I'll measure) washer fill, and esp not hearing a pump anymore. Meanwhile, I'll go back next door and work some grade to the approach and where 'Mr Concrete' washed out. That'll give me another wash down test.

Know ye this: If/when I drill for a 'sub' someday it won't be expecting water I'd drink then either.

 

[speedbump]

The big thing is that your happy with it. That's all that counts.