Solar power anyone ?

   / Solar power anyone ?
  • Thread Starter
#21  
In the For-what-its-worth column, I took a solar course (NABCEP certification) over the mtn at Appy State, and they had some small Arco from the early 80's. The output on them was about 80% what they were rated to produce, and they had been in use for nearly 30 years. You can buy brand new panels and not get much better under real world conditions.
 
   / Solar power anyone ? #22  
... Lets says we would use 3KW per hour or a total of 15 KWH during that power generation time. We would have to install about 3.75 KW of panels on the roof to get 3KW at the outlets. The extra PV is for power loss in the system.
...

I was writing in a hurry and left out some information.

There is power loss from the generation of the DC power by the PV when converted to AC and other parts of the system. The calculator we used in class assumed an efficiency of around 75%. Meaning you would loose 25% of the power generated on the roof by the time it got to the outlets for use. Another way to look at this inefficiency is that it increases your cost by 25%. This is a little detail that can bite you. One might figure you need 40 KWH a day to cover one's power usage. Now one would assume you get power production sometime after sunrise until sometime before sunset. Nope. In my location, I get five hours of power producing light year round. This is another detail that is important. So if I need 40 KWH a day, I need to put 8 KW of panels on the roof, 40 KWH / 5 sunlight hours equals 8. Nope, that won't work because we will only get roughly 75% of the power from the panels to the outlets, so I REALLY need 8*1.25 or 10 KWH.... This just pushed up the cost.

But, the panels will loose efficiency over time so the design should include some extra generation to cover that loss. How much? Another 10-20% sounds good to me. So lets split the difference and say another 15% which means 11.5 KWH. The final KWHs is going to depend on the area you have for the PV installation as well as the best bang for the buck on the PV panel. Panels come in different power densities and costs so one has to balance the area for the installation with the PV size, and cost. In any case, this pushed up the cost again.

But, this really does not work either because my power usage is spread over 24 hours a day and I am producing power over five hours. So now you have to grid tie and/or have batteries. In NC, it does not appear to make money sense to grid tie AND produce 100% of your power unless you grid tie AND store your five hours of production in batteries. The grid tie would be to provide power when you have exhausted your batteries. One would not want to sell power back to the grid in NC under the current regulations.

BUT, batteries cost mucho money and have a limited lifetime. PV panels seem like they will last many decades. Frankly, I would be shocked if they did not produce a good part of the rated power for the rest of my life. Batteries are a different story. They add cost to the system but I don't see that they make money sense every time I look at the numbers. A problem with batteries is that they don't like temperature extremes so they should be in the house or other AC environment. I personally do not have space for them in the house so we are SOL.

People need batteries because batteries are required to provide backup power when there is a power outage. People are shocked when the find out that a grid tied system is not usable during a power outage.

But wait, storing power is going to loose a bit of power so you need to add more PV to the roof to make up for the loss which will require more battery storage. The system ends up being a bit larger than would initially expect and the price increases accordingly due to these power loses.

These issues are not show stoppers but they are buried in the details and not readily apparent but they do increase the system cost. Grid tie regulations change and can really determine what one does or does not do with a PV installation.

Later,
Dan
 
   / Solar power anyone ? #23  
We installed a system last month, here's our public system monitor: https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Xwcn203374

it's a 4.2kw DC system, at peak it maxes out at about 3.2kw AC so the 75% rule of thumb mentioned works well.

With the incentives our up-front cost was 18.5k (including installation), but with tax incentives over the next 4 years that drops to net of 4500 out of pocket. We pay around .10/kwh so our payback period is estimated at 10 years. So less than half the warranted lifetime of the panels and inverters. Past that 10 years they're producing free electricity. We used Solarworld panels and Enphase inverters, installation was done by AES (Advanced Energy Systems) out of Eugene. It took two days for the installation and one pre-installation planning visit. We could have cut some costs by using Chinese panels and a string inverter but chose the US made panels and microinverters instead.

IMAG0231.jpg
 
   / Solar power anyone ? #24  
I was writing in a hurry and left out some information.

Actual efficiency for a well designed system is around 85%. For panel loss figure 1%/yr on average. Batteries have much higher charge-discharge losses, much higher installation costs and usually make sense in off-grid installations.

The big news today is that good quality panels today are under $1/watt. Systems do make sense if the price is right. I will have about a 5 year payback on my system. Typically I am getting up to 94% of installed nameplate on bright sunny days. Warm weather lowers output and cold increases it.

paul
 
   / Solar power anyone ? #25  
As opposed to spending $8-10k or so for a good standby generator that will burn fuel everytime you need it, solar is looking better and better.
 
   / Solar power anyone ? #26  
Oh me, I'm as confused as ever now! :confused2: my normal state.

So, no batteries, no good when power goes out? Maybe I should have some solar boys come give me explanation and estimate.
 
   / Solar power anyone ? #27  
Actual efficiency for a well designed system is around 85%. For panel loss figure 1%/yr on average. Batteries have much higher charge-discharge losses, much higher installation costs and usually make sense in off-grid installations.

My use of 75% is from http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/pvwatts/version1/US/North_Carolina/Raleigh.html

PVWATTS assumes a 77% based on the following values( For some reason I can't upload a gif/jpg). Formatting before posting does not stick. The second column is the values used to calculate the .77 number. The third column is the range of values that they could have picked. The page is here: http://www.nrel.gov/rredc/pvwatts/changing_parameters.html#dc2ac
Component Derate Factors PVWatts Default Range
PV module nameplate DC rating 0.95 0.80-.05
Inverter and transformer 0.92 0.88-.98
Mismatch 0.98 0.97-.995
Diodes and connections 0.995 0.99-.997
DC wiring 0.98 0.97-.99
AC wiring 0.99 0.98-.993
Soiling 0.95 0.30-.995
System availability 0.98 0.00-.995
Shading 1.00 0.00-.00
Sun-tracking 1.00 0.95-.00
Age 1.00 0.70-.00
Overall DC-to-AC derate factor 0.77 0.09999?.96001

I suspect your numbers do not take into account soiling.

Later,
Dan
 
   / Solar power anyone ? #28  
Oh me, I'm as confused as ever now! :confused2: my normal state.

So, no batteries, no good when power goes out? Maybe I should have some solar boys come give me explanation and estimate.

The inverter(s) sense if the grid has power. If the grid has lost power, the inverters stop inverting the PV DC power to AC so that the grid is not backfed. They don't want to back feed the grid.

Even if one hacked the system to allow the inverters to work, I think it would be real iffy to use the solar power without the grid/batteries. If you were running the fridge just on PV, a cloud shaded the panels and the PV power dropped, what happens to your fridge motor? You really need batteries in the PV installation to provide backup power if the grid is out.

Notice I said inverter(s). The "old" installations had a centralized inverter, i.e., one inverter per installation. The inverter coverts the PV DC to AC. The problem with this approach is that the panels are going to be wired in series and there is a "feature/quirk/gotcha" with this type of installation. If ONE panel in the series of say 10 panels is shaded, that one panel effects all of the panels in the string. Say one panel in a string of 10 panels is shaded to the point that that one panel produces NO power. The way the system works is that NONE of the 10 panels will now produce power.

One of the cool new things is micro inverters on each panel. The inverter converts the panels DC power to AC which prevents the shading problem. You end up with N inverters for N panels instead of 1 inverter for N panels. This is great for a grid tie system.

Later,
Dan
 
   / Solar power anyone ? #29  
The inverter(s) sense if the grid has power. If the grid has lost power, the inverters stop inverting the PV DC power to AC so that the grid is not backfed. They don't want to back feed the grid.
during an outage.

The normal operation mode is to back feed the grid (this is how you get credited for excess power produced) but during an outage for the safety of the linemen you need to disconnect from the grid, the micro-inverters do that automatically by shutting down when the grid goes out of spec (voltage or frequency)

So with micro-inverters in the event of a grid outage they produce no power.

Our power is 99.7% reliable (maybe one day outage a year), so for the rare times when we might have an extended outage I have a manual interlock and generator input on the main panel so I can connect my camping generator to provide limited power the house, the solar system will not contribute during this period. If you have grid available the costs of an off-grid battery bank are hard to justify compared to a generator.
 
   / Solar power anyone ? #30  
My use of 75% is from PVWATTS: North_Carolina - Raleigh

PVWATTS assumes a 77% based on the following values( For some reason I can't upload a gif/jpg). Formatting before posting does not stick. The second column is the values used to calculate the .77 number. The third column is the range of values that they could have picked. The page is here: NREL: PVWatts - How to Change Parameters


I suspect your numbers do not take into account soiling.

Later,
Dan
You need to look at your installation and set the factors accordingly, rather than default.

For example, my inverter CEC rating is 95.5%, in our area soiling is minimal 0.98, system availability has been 100% so far, no shading throughout the day and age is at .99. Clouds, non-sunny days, etc are not included in these "installation" numbers since NREL will calculate based on the number of solar hours for your location, which takes into account those "non-installation" factors.

paul
 
 
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