Standby Generator - Diesel or NG?

   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #21  
RobJ said:
Bet that sucker sucks the fuel at full load (if it ever gets near a full load, 125kw a bunch!). I'd use NG espacially if it's piped into the house by a utility company. You'll still have gas even it the power is out.

Mostly, the Genset runs at about 30%... Somewhere in the specs I remember reading a little under 10 gph at full standby load of 150 kw. We use the Prime Mover rating of 125 kw

I really did not have the option of going with Natural Gas unless I went to the added expense of an on site tank and pressure pump to fill it or propane.

The powers that be decided the utility gas lines would be more susceptible in an earth quake and this unit is located in SF Bay Area.

The original unit was NG and performed very well, but was deemed too small in view of future expansion and the earth quake issue.

I've been thinking of a Propane Unit for my place in Olympia because I would never have to worry about the fuel going stale.
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #22  
MikePA said:
If there's no electricity, how are you going to pump the diesel?

You can always go get or have brought in diesel from outside the problem area. You can't bring in NG from anywhere:cool:
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #23  
In my work, I manage several different sites with backup power schemes. About half are diesel and the others are propane. Here are my observations:

Diesels.

1. Quieter, all ours run at 1800 RPM(never seen a 1500 RPM genset, perhaps 50HZ?).

2. No issues with fuel storage. Our sites are checked for water accumulation and bio-bore added annually and that is it. We store between 250 and 1000 gallons and they are only topped off every other year, and only a few hundred gallons at the most. If you share it with a furnace fuel oil storage tank, it will get regular refueling and useage and fresh infusions of commercially treated fuels. If you have a diesel tractor, you can also use this fuel to keep a steady use of it so it is re-fueled on a regular basis.

3. These are the most efficient due to their higher torque, lower RPM and direct drive, around .125 gallon per KW per hour.

Ultrarunner, I would guess that that 10GPH is probably closer to what you are actually using at 30% load. a 150KW diesel generator is going to need closer to 20GPH at full load. That is at or near peak efficiency(close to 80% load), The efficiency falls off with a light load and 30% is pretty light for a diesel.

Propane:
1. Good fuel storage characteristics, but I have lost 2 full tanks of propane to the atmosphere due to regulator failures over the last 2 years. It dosn't take much of a leak to vent a whole tank away on an unattended tank. One of these was a recently filled 2500 gallon tank(2000 gallon lost) at nearly $3 per gallon delivered to the remote site. No real environmental concerns if you do have a spill though, unless there is a fire:).

2. louder in operation. Due to lower available torque, they either need to run at 3600 RPM or have a reduction gearbox so engine can run at peak HP RPM.

3. Fuel efficiency is less because of lower BTU content in the fuel, lower available torque and higher required RPM(more bangs per minute). I have an oversized 100KW genset that is only powering a 21KW load. At 25% load, it consumes around 7.6 gallons of propane per hour. That gives me about 11 days runtime on that 2000 gallons of propane. Since it is basically BTU to KWH, I would expect a 40KW load to use better than 10GPH of propane, so a 500 gallon tank would last 50 hours.

Cost wise, our diesels are cheaper to operate and easier to get fueled as we have more diesel suppliers than propane suppliers in our area.

Can your utility guarantee natural gas delivery during a power outtage(most can), but depending on your location, other disasters may shutdown that distribution system. A backup isn't much good in an emergency if it can't get fuel. This was a big issue for many last winter here in the northwest. They had the portable generator, but couldn't get gas for it as few gas stations within 50 miles had power.

Backfeeding and making a downed line hot is a possibility with a improperly wired installation, but it is also very unlikley that it could happen, as most likley the commercial line break is not between you and your neighbors. As soon as you backfeed your neighborhood circuit, all your neighbors homes are gong to attempt to draw power and your little generator is going to promptly stand on it's ear trying to feed that massive load. Not even an issue with a properly installed transfer switch or an interlocked backfed main panel.


Are you sure you need 40KW? You didn't say what your exact situation is, but that is a lot for a residence. I would not size a backup generator based on service capacity. Every KW you generate is horrendously expensive once you factor in all the aqusition, maintenance and fuel costs. A generator that is way oversized for your average electrical load is just wastefull, particularly for backup use as big gens cost bigger bucks. It is also hard on the generator, particularly a diesel as they do not live as long when run under a low load.

As an example: Take this with a grain of salt, as I tend to be a minimalist by nature(except when I post:)). I have a 200 amp singe phase service to my home. My backup generator is 3KW. Yes, you read that correctly as THREE KW. This powers well pump, reefer, freezer, pellet stove, as many lights as I want to turn on(most all CFL's), TV, 2 small stove burners and microwave(not all at the same time of course:)). Everything except the electric hot water heater, oven and electric cloths dryer, and I havn't really experimented with the oven yet but it is pretty close to my limit. My average load is well below this, and I will turn on some electric heat in the house(1000-1500W) when not cooking, to keep the generator load up(diesels don't live as long when under-loaded). I can hit my max capacity when all the auto appliances run at once, but this is rare, unless the power has been off for a while, in which case I can let them catch up one at a time when I switch in the generator, before I start to turn on other loads.

It is a water cooled single cylinder slow speed diesel and I am in the process of plumbing it for recovering the waste heat to maintain my hot water tank at 120F. When this is done, I have everything to keep my family comfortable when the local PUD fails to meet it's obligations(usually due to circumstances beyond their control). Running 12 hours a day at a 2KW typical load, That is 1/4 gallon average per hour or 3 gallons per day. A 55 gallon drum of fuel will last 18 days at that rate. Since I will use this tank as a fuel supply for my tractor as well, I will continue to buy it 5 gallons at a time on my way home from work as I have for the tractor over the past few years. This keeps the fuel rotated and fresh.

I am also a diesel fan as they seem to have the edge on efficiency and supply in my area.
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #24  
Skyco said:
You can't bring in NG from anywhere:cool:
No need to bring it in since it's piped in.:)
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #25  
My 40 kw is PTO drive. It will make a 75 pto hp tractor work when you have it pulling a heavy current load. It paid for itself in 2000 when we were out for 14 days after an ice storm. The hog business we had needed juice 24/7, no ands ifs or buts. It was actually sized for summer load(which was the highest) because confined livestock has to be kept cool or you have a very large mess on your hands. That was 24 fan motors, 3 2hp feed motors, 2 1 1/2 hp well pumps, and a 2 hp water pump. All the electronic controls for the facility, air conditioner for the office, hot water heater, computers, washer dryer,ect,ect.
The electrician said it would run 4 or 5 houses when I installed it, but going from average use, the barn used about 10 times what my house did.
Used it more sparingly in early 2007 for 9 days(just had my house on it then as I had shut the hog operation down), has about 400 hrs(as a guess)on it now and never a problem.
The whole setup new, with a wheel kit to tow it, transfer switch and installation cost less than 3 grand. They come as small as 7.5 kw and are a great backup if you have a good tractor to run it and you don't have an extra motor to maintain. I keep it in my shop and just hook it up and pull it out when I need it and to test it.
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #27  
MikePA said:
No need to bring it in since it's piped in.:)

Providing that distribution network is still online and available in an emergency...
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #28  
Ron... what are you running for your genset?

Small Diesels, the 1800 rpm units all but vanished here in California several years ago and now the Bay Area Air Quality Mgmt District is after my 1995 Turbo Cummins Genset... they are really pushing for Natural Gas or Propane.
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #29  
RonMar said:
Providing that distribution network is still online and available in an emergency...

Exactly. I'm not convinced in some types of emergencies it would be available. I even read on another site a discussion about gas companies cutting off some users in an emergency so home heating could be maintained. Don't know if they've ever done that or not, but it could happen. Whether the OP is in a situation where it could happen to him or not we don't know.
I guess for emergency backup plans I prefer to not have to be dependent on anyone else, hence my preference for diesel, it can be "stockpiled" or moved around. NG cannot.

It was mentioned NG was easier starting...that may be true in the very cold with a cold genset. I have over 200 diesel generators at work up to 250kW but the majority are 40-50 kW and they are all kept warmed up 24/7 if they are fixed. About 12 are portable and they aren't kept warmed up. Overall my employer has thousands of gensets nationwide and the number of LP or NG is probably .1%.
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #30  
RonMar said:
Providing that distribution network is still online and available in an emergency...
Obviously it depends on what the emergency is, which can be a function of what part of the country you live in.
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG?
  • Thread Starter
#31  
rosietheriviter said:
Cons.... NG or LPG, have certain safety issues (explosive vapors), some concerns with fuel supply (refill) in long term usage, usually of the higher RPM ranges, limited KW capacity availability.

I hadn't thought about a safety issue. I was thinking about building a lean-to onto my garage to house the generator. I was planning to have a door from the garage to the generator area as well as a door in the lean-to large enough to skid the genset in and out if needed. If there is a possibility of a vapour problem then it would seem prudent to leave it outside unprotected - contrary to the way I like to do things.

My main feed (400 amp) comes into the garage then a feeder line splits off to the house. Therefore I don't have the option of having a subpanel for those circuits that are most critical. However, I can still shut off the various secondary circuits in the house breaker panels such as the electric hot water furnace (150 amp breaker) that heats my basement floor. We use three furnaces to heat the house - a regular 85K BTU NG forced air furnace, a rooftop 85K BTU NG forced air furnace/AC and the electric hot water furnace.

I used the calculator suggested in a previous post and it recommended a 30KW generator but it didn't factor in some critical issues such as we have over 12,000 square feet of glass. The glass panels are all gas filled sealed units but there is still a considerable heat loss from them. So I think a 40KW genset is about right. However before I make any commitment, I will have an electrician check out exactly what I need.

Thanks agian for all the input.
 
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   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #32  
I used the calculator suggested in a previous post and it recommended a 30KW generator but it didn't factor in some critical issues such as we have over 12,000 square feet of glass. The glass panels are all gas filled sealed units but there is still a considerable heat loss from them. So I think a 40KW genset is about right. However before I make any commitment, I will have an electrician check out exactly what I need.

Thanks agian for all the input.[/quote]


I have never heard of a heat loss cal. performed when sizing a generator. This is performed to size a furnace. You need an amp load calculation ( add for start up amps) Not a heat loss calculation.


In 1993 we here (in the south) had a winter ice storm. None of the service stations had power to be able to pump gas or diesel. The nat gas never down. Most nat gas pumping stations (around here ) have back up power
 
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   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #33  
Howard

We just installed a 13 kW Generac unit here and powered it with LP (NG not available here). The way it was researched by the electrician was.... Add up the AMP's on the required breakers and add in a plus factor. So we determined what we needed to have powered during an extended outage. In our case we could get by with a 7.5kW but bumped it up for the plus.

It will not make any difference that your service enters your garage and then goes to the house. The transfer switch will mount next to the house panel and only the breakers that will be powered by the generator will be jumped over to the transfer panel. Those breakers will always have power and will be the working breakers for your house even when on utility power. When the utility power goes out the transfer panel will switch the feed from utility to standby generator and the rest of the house and garage will be left without power. After the power is restored the transfer panel will switch back to utility power and the generator will run for a few minutes to cool down and then shut off. In each case, loss of power or the utility restoring power, there will be a short delay by the transfer switch to be sure the the lost or gain is not just a surge. In our case, the power is transfered in about 30 seconds or less. These units come in weather protect cases and are meant to be installed outside in most cases. They are also very quiet, so much so that you don't notice them at all.

I think most of the diesel generators will be water cooled and that is another hassle that you don't have with the gas units.

We do loose our power here and are very happy with the setup we installed.
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #34  
Ron,

It is a water cooled single cylinder slow speed diesel and I am in the process of plumbing it for recovering the waste heat to maintain my hot water tank at 120F.

What engine are you running and where did you get it?

Later,
Dan
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #35  
I think most of the diesel generators will be water cooled and that is another hassle that you don't have with the gas units.




If he is getting a 40 KW it will be liquid cooled. Liquid cooled generators ( Generac brand) start at a 20 KW. At one time you could get 15 KW liquid cooled Generac. I perfer liquid cooled as opposed to air cooled
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #36  
RonMar said:
These are the most efficient due to their higher torque, lower RPM and direct drive, around .125 gallon per KW per hour.

Ultrarunner, I would guess that that 10GPH is probably closer to what you are actually using at 30% load. a 150KW diesel generator is going to need closer to 20GPH at full load. That is at or near peak efficiency(close to 80% load), The efficiency falls off with a light load and 30% is pretty light for a diesel. .

Ron... you've got me curious about the fuel consumption of unit so I pulled the Purchase Order from 1995.

The spec listed is 9.1 US gph at 125 kW full load. I've been using the 10 gph as a rough estimate when calculating my fuel budget.

You guys are lucky, because here they are really cracking down on ALL stationary Diesels 50 hp and larger. These units must now be licensed, inspected and taxed based on yearly emissions. The next step is planned phase-out of non-conforming units...

Thanks for jogging my memory...
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #37  
ultrarunner said:
Ron... you've got me curious about the fuel consumption of unit so I pulled the Purchase Order from 1995.

The spec listed is 9.1 US gph at 125 kW full load. I've been using the 10 gph as a rough estimate when calculating my fuel budget.

You guys are lucky, because here they are really cracking down on ALL stationary Diesels 50 hp and larger. These units must now be licensed, inspected and taxed based on yearly emissions. The next step is planned phase-out of non-conforming units...

Thanks for jogging my memory...

Wow! 9.1 gallons divided by 125KW is .0728 gallons per KW/HR. I don't think I have ever come across a fuel consumption that low. Large scale increases efficiency, but those are some low figures.

At work I have Five 1800 RPM Onan/cummins 3 phase generators in service. They use a 30HP 3 cylinder Kubota tractor engine and consume approx .125 gallon per KW/HR.

In answer to yours and Dan's question, my personal genset is a copy of a 6HP single cylinder lister CS engine commonly called a "listeroid"(google it). It has 24" flywheels and runs at 650 RPM nominal(a very pleasant thump-thump-thump). It uses a wide automotive serpentine belt driving an 8" pully on a 5KW generator head at 1800 RPM. I purchased the engine from a vendor out of Portland OR. Rule of thumb for longevity is about 2HP per KW of output and mine can only sustain 3KW, but the large mass of the flywheels(300#) and the heavy cast iron generator rotor give it the stored inertia to start rather large inductive loads like a well pump or air compressor. It will start loads that would stall a box store 3-5KW portable. It too consumes around .125 gallon per KW/HR.

Sizing the generator based on totaling breaker sizes for critical breakers is a bit better than baseing it on your service size, but still probably oversized for what is actually needed, just like the breakers are oversized for the loads they supply. Even using that linked-to calculator, the results should be interpreted a little as it appears to total up the selected items, with no thought to when and how they will actually be operated. It appears to assumes that they will ALL be on simultaneously. IF you want to be burning excess fuel to have the ability to turn on ALL electrical loads in your home all at once, then that is your choice. "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go"

IMO, A better way to determine size for a backup generator is to actually measure the ammount of electrical power each device uses. An electrician with a clamp-on amp meter can do this quite easilly. Then factor in startup currents for automated loads(furnace, water heater ect). Then look at what you would conceivably use at the same time, with a additional factor for expansion if you have any plans to add in the future. OK, so I can only run the vacume or dishwasher or washer one at a time when on the generator... Guess I now have more time to watch Speedvision.
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #38  
Looks like what I've heard called a "Hit and Miss" utility engine...

Thanks Ron.
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #39  
Awww, I'd use it as an excuse to get a Big *** of a welder/generator set.
Something that WOULD get some exercise once in a while, it would probably have a 4 (at LEAST) cylinder Perkins diesel.
 
   / Standby Generator - Diesel or NG? #40  
ultrarunner said:
Looks like what I've heard called a "Hit and Miss" utility engine...

Thanks Ron.


The few hit and misses I have ever seen were all horizontals and had a built in cooling/boiling tank. They also had a more distinct sound with the firing once every several rotations and the noticable acceleration and deceleration. They do have the big flywheels in common.

The CS lister is vertical and fires every other revolution just like any other single cylinder 4 cycle engine. Here is a link to a video of one running that is very similar to mine. This one has a 55 gallon cooling tank, where mine has a small 5" X 12" heatexchanger. The aluminum ducting down past the generator in this video is slid right over the stock "peppercan" muffler, probably just to direct the exhaust a particular direction. You will note that it is not very loud. Search "listeroid" or "lister" on Youtube and you will find a bunch of different videos.

YouTube - Lister 2
 

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