Surveyor mistake - a big one

[ray66v]

that doesnt always work. Boundries writen by lawers often dont close because they lack the techincal expertise to properly lay it out. Or a discription of "owns the northwest corner of the northwest quadrant of the 4th district etc) is by rule, a _____ tract of land (50 acers or something) a boundry is then writen up later that specifies angles, distances. 1) that discrption doesnt close, and 2) comes up with 48.5 acers.

Most people can not walk a 375.45' line heading 34.589 degees westing and expect that your buildings are were they are supposed to be.

his (incorrect) deed could have been writen up to close, useing the wrong starting cords. so you could walk the perfect boundry as recoreded and assumed your buildings were well inside it. only problem is, it was off

News flash: nothing always works. Thats why I said that mistakes can often be caught, and not, always be caught.

Yes, if it is barren undeveloped land you may not be able to catch a location mistake.

But, you don't have to be a surveyor to read from the legal description that your lot is 375.45' wide and measure from the pins, stakes, fences, or assumed boundary and see if there is agreement. Measuring from the center of the road to find the back edge of the property is also generally, a simple task. Sure, you may not notice a mistake of a few feet. But, you certainly could catch a big mistake. And, at least you can plant the tree in what measures to be your yard, instead of assuming.

 

[JN4310]

Thanks everyone for all the replies.

I knew I would have to have a lawyer very soon. The surveyor said he wants to get together with me to explain how this happened, but it is actually very easy to see. The front of my property curves around a 1200' long 90 degree curve in the street, so that my rear property line is also my other side line (think of a large L, with a curve connecting the two end points). The long side is 660' and the short one, on my property is about 330, but for the person that owns the other side continues another 200' or so (making it a T instead of an L). They mistakenly used that deeper point when they staked the property for me (making it look like a 7), and then came back and did it a second time after I built my guest house, making my lot appear to be 660 x 500. The drawings were done correctly, only the stakes in the ground between the end points were placed incorrectly. It was those stakes that we used to place our utilities and measure the starting point of both houses. Even with the original mistake, they should have caught it the second time before I had built my main house.

I just wondered if anyone knew if surveyors were responsible for more that the cost of the survey; for example, could they be forced to rewind the process back to bare dirt, and I get a do-over. Would I be compensated for the replacement cost of the dwellings? Can I get relocation expenses for the period (9 months?) of the reconstruction. Would they say they only have to move the guest house since it is the one located within the 50' setback, and I'm stuck with a main house that is not where I would have put it had I been able to see the actual layout of the land, not just a drawing. I understand that once you place a foundation, and then actually build the building, you have to verify that it actually is in the correct location. The professional surveyor that I used for both layout and confirmation after building got it wrong.

My wife and I this morning thought it might be acceptable, since there is 40' between our houses, if they just took down the guest house, and rebuilt it as an addition to our main house. We would get another attached two car, er, tractor, garage with a bedroom and bath above it. It would still leave our main house in the wrong place, but it would fit within the setbacks. How much do I have to be willing to compromise, or can I reasonably expect my preferred solution (bare dirt), but I lose the memories...

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[EddieWalker]

To answer your questions, it really depends on how aggressive and competent your lawyer is. Some are very good, most are just average and like anything else, some are just terrible. The biggest mistake most people make when hiring anybody is to hire the first one they meet. As a contractor, I see this all the time. Talk to at least five lawyers and don't think twice about talking to allot more. This could be big money, so taking the time to find the right person who's done this before and achieved the results that you are looking for is probably the most important thing you can do here.

I would not meet with anybody on your own. Anything and probably everything you say and do WILL be ammo to use against you. There is no reason for you to meet with anybody. You are emotionally tied to this, which means you are not the best person to make the decisions. The advantage to a lawyer is that he's not working off of emotions, he's not being screwed or haveing to give up anything. He's hired for one thing and that is to get you the best possible results that he can. He doesn't care if he hurts a neighbors feelings, he only cares about getting results. If he doesn't, he's not the lawyer for you.

Having a new survey done sounds like a good first step. Right now, you probably need to know exactly what is wrong by somebody other then the original surveyor. Do you know any realtors or title company people? They work with surveyors on a daily basis and usually know who the good ones are and who to avoid or who charges too much. My realtor has his favorite who I've used several times, and he has a backup list of who he uses if his first choice is too busy and he can't wait.

Since the buildings are built, I'm assuming that you are happy with them and would prefer that they remain as is? Would you like to keep the property line where it is if possible? This should be possible with a variance to your neigbhor who will be losing some land with enough money. The question is how much? How much land are we talking about here? If it's an acre, will he be happy to give up that amount of land for $100,000 and a variance to his deed restrictions that will allow him to have less land? It's just paperwork and there's no need to move any buildings. Maybe more money? It's not your money, it's up to the lawyer that you hire and the surveyors insurance lawyers to decide on how much it will take to make your neighbor happy.

Since you haven't mentioned any issues with the property line or size of the lots until the surveyor told you the line was wrong, it's likely that he was happy with what he has and doesn't really need or want more land. Heck, if he has less land, he might have less property taxes to pay!!!

Eddie

 

[MikePA]

John, you've asked good questions but no one on TBN can answer them unless they know the zoning law where you live.

Do not assume you know what mistake the surveyor made. I would find a lawyer and meet with the surveyor with your lawyer. There's going to have to be a lot of written documentation on what happened and how it happened from the surveyor. Any new survey will have to show the property lines, the setback lines and the location of existing buildings, underground utility lines, etc. Your lawyer will advise you what steps to take to address this which hopefully will occur before a zoning enforcement officer discovers this or is told about it.

 

[JN4310]

Eddie,

Good questions. I am happy with the buildings as they are, but that happiness includes the fact that I thought my house was 130' from my property line. The old neighbor had kids that were a nuisance (parties, ATV's, baseballs through my windows, etc) and I wouldn't want those kids any closer to my house. The guest house, which was often unoccupied, was placed there as a buffer. I haven't met the new buyer yet since he is relocating from out of state and is having some renovation done before he moves. I think he also has two young children. I don't even know if he is aware of the issue.

This came about because his lender hired the same surveyor to verify the property. I don't know yet if he would settle for less land. People usually move out here for horses and animals. Oddly enough, he paid more for 1 house than I would ask for both of mine, so it would be cheaper to buy me out than him. It is a smaller house but beautiflly landscaped and has a pool.

The amount of land involved is between 1 and 1 1/2 acre. I am going to take some measurments later today. There are accurate pins in the ground to measure from. My main concern is that now my side property line won't run more or less parallel to the houses, but will cut across diagonally across my back yard. Someone could stand there and look into the back of my house. If I put up a wall or bushes, I will have boxed myself in, even though I moved here to have wide open spaces. I lived in California for 20 years and I'm over postage stamp sized lots.

I, too, like the idea of having less taxes to pay, but I wouldn't settle for less land to do it. I have been told that the new owner paid cash (800K+-) for the house, so I don't know if money is his issue either.

 

[MikePA]

While your new neighbor might play a part in the resolution, when it comes down to it, this is your problem since you are the one who built a guest house and a septic system on someone elses property. A zoning officer could site you and give you a certain amount of time to relocate the septic system and tear down your guest house and possibly impose a fine.

 

[JN4310]

Mike,

Thanks for that cheery news...I don't plan on involving my neighbor at all. It seems to me that it is really up to the surveyor to make it right. I have a letter from him stating: 'the field crew made a plunder when they laid out your west property line. This error did not show up in any of your later surveys because the field crew used the same incorrect line.', and 'I will do all I can to clear this mess, which I have created, up'. I hope his insurance company is as forthright as he is.

I have a small sketch of the lot lines and the two buildings and septic fields. It doesn't look as bad on paper, but in person it is quite dramatic.

John

 

[MikePA]

Thanks for that cheery news...

Sorry about that.... When I worked for my FIL, a civil engineer, we ran into situations similar to this, i.e., locating the property line and buildings on the property because of zoning disputes. I've also run into this with a neighbor down the road. They installed an above ground pool, with a deck and lots of landscaping. The zoning officer 'happened' to drive by, measured the distance from the center of the street to the edge of the pool and determined it was not set far enough back. It was only by a few inches and with our roads, a different guess at the center of the road made the difference. Our neighbor appealed and won. They didn't have to move the pool. With a building and a septic system involved, it could be a different story. It's nice the surveyor is saying the right things.

 

[wedge40]

Very interesting thread. I'll be watching to see how this turns out. I'm not sure but I might own about 1/3 or my neighbors garage and such. I've been thinking of having my land surveyed and staked for years.. Just not willing to give up the cash.
I'm waiting to see who has to pay to fix this. I have a lot of "Shady" things on my property that were officially signed off and I'd be curious who has to pay if and when someone comes back and tell's me to fix it.

Wedge

 

[tommu56]

What about a compromise like this?

With the same square footage.

tommu56