Tankless water heater code question

   / Tankless water heater code question #1  

gsganzer

Elite Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2003
Messages
3,210
Location
Denton, TX
Tractor
L3800 w/FEL and BH77, BX 2200 w/FEL and MMM
Does anyone know if a "room sealed" tankless water heater can be mounted in a utility/laundry room, without having to be in it's own closet?

I'm not sure about other states, but I believe that in Texas, a gas water heater must be in it's own vented closet. I'm wondering if the same code applies to a tankless hot water heater that gets its combustion air from outside (room sealed unit).

Specifically I'm looking at a Bosch 250SX-LP
 
   / Tankless water heater code question #2  
I have seen them mounted above a washer and dryer in a utility closet in Washington. The home sold and passed inspection.

Now whether or not that makes it "code" or not is another question.

Really slick to not have a big herkin hot water tank taking up space and wasting energy on stanby.
 
   / Tankless water heater code question #3  
just call your local building inspector
 
   / Tankless water heater code question #4  
Room sealed means that both intake and exhaust are brought in from outside. Your clearance requirements are pretty minimal (and the size of the room is not an issue, because make-up air is coming from outside). The "separate room" and room size requirements are typically due to the volume of air required for combustion and the method used by the heater to obtain that air. If a large BTU burner is in too small (by volume) a room, theoretically, it could consume all of the oxygen in the room.

Most local code agents are fairly unfamiliar with tankless heaters (my experience so far anyway). They will typically default to whatever the manufacturer recommends in the installation manual.

All that being said, if you are looking at LP (Propane) units rather than NG, I'd shy away from the Bosch unit. I had one (also LP) for about 4 months and had constant problems with consistent firings, loud noises, steam flashing in the heat exchanger after shutdown (water would stop flowing and the burner would continue for another 10 seconds or so, flashing the water to steam and hammering the pipes throughout the whole house).

When I finally got through to the right people (NOT FACTORY REPS - who were worthless from a support standpoint) that had some knowledge and experience with LP tankless units, they had a pretty simple answer to my issues - replace the unit with one designed for LP gas. According to the couple of propane places I spoke with, LP is a more "finicky" gas than NG when it comes to proper combustion, etc, and that using a unit designed originally for LP gas will result in better results than one designed for NG and "converted" to LP. They said the European units were designed for NG and often "converted" (due to the EU primarily using NG for the fuel source), while the Japanese units were designed for LP and "converted" for NG usage, since the Japanese have primarily LP gas for fuel.

So, after 4 months of bad luck with the Bosch (and several hundred $$$ in "factory-authorized representative" repairman visits attempting to fix the problems), they took back my unit on warranty and I replaced it with a Rinnai. After hooking up the Rinnai unit (I did all the installation - on both units - myself), the very first time I turned it on, it worked exactly like it was supposed to. Nearly 8 months later, still no problems. Endless hot water is nice. :D

The Rinnai venting was much simpler to install as well - the intake is a PVC outer shell with the exhaust as a stainless steel inner pipe (like a double-ring in cross section), so you don't have to run two pipes in opposite directions like on the Bosch. I definitely recommend placing the unit on an outside wall - it makes installation of the ventwork much easier, and cheaper. The vent piping is expensive - the Bosch ventwork is roughly $80 for a 4' piece of pipe. I think the standard "kit" for vent and intake of the Bosch runs around $400. The Rinnai "kit" was around $200 or so. The Rinnai unit was more expensive (around $1000 instead of around $800 for the Bosch). Another cool "feature" on the Rinnai is the wired remote - you can install it away from the unit (mine is in the master bathroom closet) and control the water temperature and/or check status of the unit without having to go check the unit itself (mine is in the back corner of the basement).

Other considerations are gas line sizing - these puppies need a LOT of gas when they are operating. If installing in an existing home, you need to take a look at what your gas supply piping sizes (and lengths) are, and whether they will support a tankless unit without modification. In a new home, make sure you size the piping right up front (or let your plumber know your intentions). It is not uncommon for tankless units to require a full 1" gas line (especially for installations using the yellow flexible/corrugated gas lines, which are discouraged by ALL tankless makers). I ran 1" black iron and reduced to 3/4" right at the unit to make sure I had no issues (and to allow installation of a possible second unit for radiant floor heating in the master bathroom down the road).

Finally, consider installation of a recirculation loop on your hot water system to eliminate the "cold water sandwich" that is common with tankless water heaters. It is best to use a small tank heater (6 gallon or so) and run the recirculation loop through that small tank rather than recirculating through the actual tankless unit (which would make it run more often and pretty much kill the "effeciency" idea of tankless units). Rinnai has a good schematic in their user manual related to this in some of their documentation (file attached - the first "schematic" is the one to use).

Oh, and one last thing - use the Isolator EXP valves for your water connections. They make life so much easier when connecting the water than any other option - especially since the tankless unit requires the pressure relief valve to be installed externally (rather than its own tap on the side/top of a standard water heater), but upstream of the shutoff valve. The EXP valves also have purge/drain taps built in as well, which is really nice.

Edit: Some of my prices may be off a bit - I was buying my stuff nearly 12 months ago, and all of my purchases are made through a wholesale supplier that the company I work for uses for all of our industrial and commercial piping/plumbing supply (i.e. BIG discounts). But otherwise, the advice is based on my personal (and to some extent painful) experiences while designing/building my own home.
 

Attachments

  • Cold_Water_Sandwich.pdf
    72.4 KB · Views: 11,105
  • IsolatorEXP_screen.pdf
    994.2 KB · Views: 237
   / Tankless water heater code question #5  
In the new houses we looked at the only code thing I saw is they have to be up 18" or so off the ground. And that may have been only in areas where gasoline is stored.
 
   / Tankless water heater code question
  • Thread Starter
#6  
LC,
Terrific advice!! That sounds like the information I really needed! There's nothing better then getting information from someone who's "Been down that road".
 
   / Tankless water heater code question #7  
I haven't seen any of these installed in a utility room / closet . Most are in a garage or outside units. Down here it depends on what city you'er working in as what to the requirments are. If you go by the man. installation specs. you should be ok but, you never know an inspector has up his sleeve.I saw an inspector have a plumber take out a gas line to a fire place once & make him reroute the line cause he ( the inspector) didn't like the way it looked.
 
   / Tankless water heater code question #8  
RobJ - the 18" thing is related to combustables in the same space as the water heater - like you had said. Personally, I wouldn't keep combustables in the same room near something like a water heater (sealed or not) that had a 199,000 BTU rating.

gsganzer - feel free to PM me if you have any other questions/thoughts/ideas you want to ask about. I designed my own house from scratch (with MUCH input from my wife on the layout - but the engineering and details were by me), and installed all my own plumbing/gas piping and fixtures (as well as doing a lot of the other work on the house as well). Since I was "breaking new ground" amoungst family, friends, and co-workers in regards to the fixtures and appliances I was using (claw-foot tubs, apron-front sinks, tankless water heater, etc - not "off the shelf/standard rough-in" stuff), I had to spend a lot of time making sure things were thought through so I didn't end up screwed when the sheetrock was up and painted and things didn't work right. My father-in-law (ex-plumber) bitched constantly when he'd come over - "What the h_ll you doing that for?!" I'd have to calmly reply, "Because ____ has to sit here, and ____ has to be this high, and ____ mounts like this rather than this..." To which he'd respond, "That's f__ked up - why don't you just use a regular ____ instead?" Anyway, long story short, yes, I've been down that road recently (still finishing details in a lot of places), so the highs and lows are still very fresh in my mind.

kenmac - there are means of rebutting when inspectors ask you to do stupid things. Just because he didn't get lucky the night before is no reason for you to have to redo something if it is indeed up to code. There were several times through the course of construction on my house where I had "issues" with the inspector claiming something to be required when in fact it was not. The key is 1) knowing the code you are being held to, 2) not being afraid to call a bluff, and 3) knowing the appeals process within your municipality's code enforcement structure. After the third time that I called him on something he was telling me to do that was no longer part of the code (sometimes they're not as up to speed as they should be on code changes either), he backed off because he could see I was on top of things and wasn't trying to cut corners. It also doesn't hurt to make courtesy calls up front when you do have a question and ask your inspector for his input. Doing that on my house saved me a lot of time and effort on things that I wasn't sure about.

Just my experiences. YMMV...
 
   / Tankless water heater code question #9  
Casey, are you happy with the volume of flow from a tankless? I have yet to be. I am on my second tankless, the first was the early prototype from the early 90's which was pure dogdew. The one in my home now is a Rinnai. It works very well, is an outside mounted type but I still find the volume the biggest problem with tankless. Endless hot water is nice, but limited flow is still a negative. If the shower is going and anything else gets turned on like the washer, the kitchen sink or dishwasher, forget about a full pressure shower. The Rinnai and others are limited to a few gallons per minute and that suffers more as the temperature of the incoming water decreases. Now two Rinnai's in parallel would probably work great as the manual shows, but your now well over $2000 for the heaters alone and quite frankly, I really have yet to see much savings between todays well insulated sealed burner tank heaters and todays very well made tankless like Rinnai. Correct me where I am wrong.
 
   / Tankless water heater code question #10  
LC Brewing said:
there are means of rebutting when inspectors ask you to do stupid things.


Ain't that the truth!

I did my own design and construction when I built my house, too. Many
of the things I used were innovative and unusal, resulting in some
inspector hassles. I fought and won those by knowing the codes and
appealing to the director of the bldg dept when I had to. These included
ICF construction, SS flex gas lines, Infiltrator septic, and a number of
electrical code issues that could be met multiple ways. I also had to
deal with the issue of the electrical power co having more stringent
rules than the NEC.

One of those issues was in siting the LP furnace and providing collection
and gravity drainage for potential gas leaks. This is an issue for LP
furnaces and water heaters installed inside the living area.
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

2010 Ford Edge SE SUV (A51694)
2010 Ford Edge SE...
JOHN DEERE 8R 280 (A53084)
JOHN DEERE 8R 280...
(10) Replacement Thumb Cylinders (A51573)
(10) Replacement...
2014 Ag Spray Schaben Sidedresser (A53472)
2014 Ag Spray...
Yale MPB040-EN24T2748 4,000lbs Electric Walk-Behind Pallet Jack (A51691)
Yale...
2015 Clarke Power Gen RC60D 47kW Towable Diesel Generator (A50324)
2015 Clarke Power...
 
Top