Tankless water heater code question

/ Tankless water heater code question #1  

gsganzer

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Location
Denton, TX
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L3800 w/FEL and BH77, BX 2200 w/FEL and MMM
Does anyone know if a "room sealed" tankless water heater can be mounted in a utility/laundry room, without having to be in it's own closet?

I'm not sure about other states, but I believe that in Texas, a gas water heater must be in it's own vented closet. I'm wondering if the same code applies to a tankless hot water heater that gets its combustion air from outside (room sealed unit).

Specifically I'm looking at a Bosch 250SX-LP
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #2  
I have seen them mounted above a washer and dryer in a utility closet in Washington. The home sold and passed inspection.

Now whether or not that makes it "code" or not is another question.

Really slick to not have a big herkin hot water tank taking up space and wasting energy on stanby.
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #3  
just call your local building inspector
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #4  
Room sealed means that both intake and exhaust are brought in from outside. Your clearance requirements are pretty minimal (and the size of the room is not an issue, because make-up air is coming from outside). The "separate room" and room size requirements are typically due to the volume of air required for combustion and the method used by the heater to obtain that air. If a large BTU burner is in too small (by volume) a room, theoretically, it could consume all of the oxygen in the room.

Most local code agents are fairly unfamiliar with tankless heaters (my experience so far anyway). They will typically default to whatever the manufacturer recommends in the installation manual.

All that being said, if you are looking at LP (Propane) units rather than NG, I'd shy away from the Bosch unit. I had one (also LP) for about 4 months and had constant problems with consistent firings, loud noises, steam flashing in the heat exchanger after shutdown (water would stop flowing and the burner would continue for another 10 seconds or so, flashing the water to steam and hammering the pipes throughout the whole house).

When I finally got through to the right people (NOT FACTORY REPS - who were worthless from a support standpoint) that had some knowledge and experience with LP tankless units, they had a pretty simple answer to my issues - replace the unit with one designed for LP gas. According to the couple of propane places I spoke with, LP is a more "finicky" gas than NG when it comes to proper combustion, etc, and that using a unit designed originally for LP gas will result in better results than one designed for NG and "converted" to LP. They said the European units were designed for NG and often "converted" (due to the EU primarily using NG for the fuel source), while the Japanese units were designed for LP and "converted" for NG usage, since the Japanese have primarily LP gas for fuel.

So, after 4 months of bad luck with the Bosch (and several hundred $$$ in "factory-authorized representative" repairman visits attempting to fix the problems), they took back my unit on warranty and I replaced it with a Rinnai. After hooking up the Rinnai unit (I did all the installation - on both units - myself), the very first time I turned it on, it worked exactly like it was supposed to. Nearly 8 months later, still no problems. Endless hot water is nice. :D

The Rinnai venting was much simpler to install as well - the intake is a PVC outer shell with the exhaust as a stainless steel inner pipe (like a double-ring in cross section), so you don't have to run two pipes in opposite directions like on the Bosch. I definitely recommend placing the unit on an outside wall - it makes installation of the ventwork much easier, and cheaper. The vent piping is expensive - the Bosch ventwork is roughly $80 for a 4' piece of pipe. I think the standard "kit" for vent and intake of the Bosch runs around $400. The Rinnai "kit" was around $200 or so. The Rinnai unit was more expensive (around $1000 instead of around $800 for the Bosch). Another cool "feature" on the Rinnai is the wired remote - you can install it away from the unit (mine is in the master bathroom closet) and control the water temperature and/or check status of the unit without having to go check the unit itself (mine is in the back corner of the basement).

Other considerations are gas line sizing - these puppies need a LOT of gas when they are operating. If installing in an existing home, you need to take a look at what your gas supply piping sizes (and lengths) are, and whether they will support a tankless unit without modification. In a new home, make sure you size the piping right up front (or let your plumber know your intentions). It is not uncommon for tankless units to require a full 1" gas line (especially for installations using the yellow flexible/corrugated gas lines, which are discouraged by ALL tankless makers). I ran 1" black iron and reduced to 3/4" right at the unit to make sure I had no issues (and to allow installation of a possible second unit for radiant floor heating in the master bathroom down the road).

Finally, consider installation of a recirculation loop on your hot water system to eliminate the "cold water sandwich" that is common with tankless water heaters. It is best to use a small tank heater (6 gallon or so) and run the recirculation loop through that small tank rather than recirculating through the actual tankless unit (which would make it run more often and pretty much kill the "effeciency" idea of tankless units). Rinnai has a good schematic in their user manual related to this in some of their documentation (file attached - the first "schematic" is the one to use).

Oh, and one last thing - use the Isolator EXP valves for your water connections. They make life so much easier when connecting the water than any other option - especially since the tankless unit requires the pressure relief valve to be installed externally (rather than its own tap on the side/top of a standard water heater), but upstream of the shutoff valve. The EXP valves also have purge/drain taps built in as well, which is really nice.

Edit: Some of my prices may be off a bit - I was buying my stuff nearly 12 months ago, and all of my purchases are made through a wholesale supplier that the company I work for uses for all of our industrial and commercial piping/plumbing supply (i.e. BIG discounts). But otherwise, the advice is based on my personal (and to some extent painful) experiences while designing/building my own home.
 

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/ Tankless water heater code question #5  
In the new houses we looked at the only code thing I saw is they have to be up 18" or so off the ground. And that may have been only in areas where gasoline is stored.
 
/ Tankless water heater code question
  • Thread Starter
#6  
LC,
Terrific advice!! That sounds like the information I really needed! There's nothing better then getting information from someone who's "Been down that road".
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #7  
I haven't seen any of these installed in a utility room / closet . Most are in a garage or outside units. Down here it depends on what city you'er working in as what to the requirments are. If you go by the man. installation specs. you should be ok but, you never know an inspector has up his sleeve.I saw an inspector have a plumber take out a gas line to a fire place once & make him reroute the line cause he ( the inspector) didn't like the way it looked.
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #8  
RobJ - the 18" thing is related to combustables in the same space as the water heater - like you had said. Personally, I wouldn't keep combustables in the same room near something like a water heater (sealed or not) that had a 199,000 BTU rating.

gsganzer - feel free to PM me if you have any other questions/thoughts/ideas you want to ask about. I designed my own house from scratch (with MUCH input from my wife on the layout - but the engineering and details were by me), and installed all my own plumbing/gas piping and fixtures (as well as doing a lot of the other work on the house as well). Since I was "breaking new ground" amoungst family, friends, and co-workers in regards to the fixtures and appliances I was using (claw-foot tubs, apron-front sinks, tankless water heater, etc - not "off the shelf/standard rough-in" stuff), I had to spend a lot of time making sure things were thought through so I didn't end up screwed when the sheetrock was up and painted and things didn't work right. My father-in-law (ex-plumber) bitched constantly when he'd come over - "What the h_ll you doing that for?!" I'd have to calmly reply, "Because ____ has to sit here, and ____ has to be this high, and ____ mounts like this rather than this..." To which he'd respond, "That's f__ked up - why don't you just use a regular ____ instead?" Anyway, long story short, yes, I've been down that road recently (still finishing details in a lot of places), so the highs and lows are still very fresh in my mind.

kenmac - there are means of rebutting when inspectors ask you to do stupid things. Just because he didn't get lucky the night before is no reason for you to have to redo something if it is indeed up to code. There were several times through the course of construction on my house where I had "issues" with the inspector claiming something to be required when in fact it was not. The key is 1) knowing the code you are being held to, 2) not being afraid to call a bluff, and 3) knowing the appeals process within your municipality's code enforcement structure. After the third time that I called him on something he was telling me to do that was no longer part of the code (sometimes they're not as up to speed as they should be on code changes either), he backed off because he could see I was on top of things and wasn't trying to cut corners. It also doesn't hurt to make courtesy calls up front when you do have a question and ask your inspector for his input. Doing that on my house saved me a lot of time and effort on things that I wasn't sure about.

Just my experiences. YMMV...
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #9  
Casey, are you happy with the volume of flow from a tankless? I have yet to be. I am on my second tankless, the first was the early prototype from the early 90's which was pure dogdew. The one in my home now is a Rinnai. It works very well, is an outside mounted type but I still find the volume the biggest problem with tankless. Endless hot water is nice, but limited flow is still a negative. If the shower is going and anything else gets turned on like the washer, the kitchen sink or dishwasher, forget about a full pressure shower. The Rinnai and others are limited to a few gallons per minute and that suffers more as the temperature of the incoming water decreases. Now two Rinnai's in parallel would probably work great as the manual shows, but your now well over $2000 for the heaters alone and quite frankly, I really have yet to see much savings between todays well insulated sealed burner tank heaters and todays very well made tankless like Rinnai. Correct me where I am wrong.
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #10  
LC Brewing said:
there are means of rebutting when inspectors ask you to do stupid things.


Ain't that the truth!

I did my own design and construction when I built my house, too. Many
of the things I used were innovative and unusal, resulting in some
inspector hassles. I fought and won those by knowing the codes and
appealing to the director of the bldg dept when I had to. These included
ICF construction, SS flex gas lines, Infiltrator septic, and a number of
electrical code issues that could be met multiple ways. I also had to
deal with the issue of the electrical power co having more stringent
rules than the NEC.

One of those issues was in siting the LP furnace and providing collection
and gravity drainage for potential gas leaks. This is an issue for LP
furnaces and water heaters installed inside the living area.
 
/ Tankless water heater code question
  • Thread Starter
#11  
I guess I'm putting the cart before the horse. My whole reason for looking into a the code issues on a "tankless" unit has to do with what someone told me about my existing tank heater installation.

When I remodeled the house, I added a utility room for the washer/dryer and pantry goods. I just stuck the water heater tank into the corner of this room. Now an aquaintance has told me that according to code, the tank must be isolated in a closet. If it does need to be in a closet, and had I known that, I would have laid the room out differently. If a "room sealed" unit doesn't need to be in a closet, then I'll just swap to one of those when I replace the tank type. Otherwise, I'll probably have to move some plumbing and gas lines around (not a big deal, I'm on a pier and beam with crawl space) to lay the room out the way I'd like it and add the closet.

My house is outside city limits, so I really don't have to worry about code enforcement, but I also have a wife and kids and I don't want an unsafe installation. I'll call the building inspector this afternoon.
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #12  
_RaT_ - I've had good luck with mine. Flow hasn't been an issue at all. My well water is consistent at 45~55 degrees (summer/winter/any time). Is your Rinnai the 2532 (larger)? I've had showers, dishwasher, and laundry all going at the same time with no problem at all. I was aprehensive (and worried) at first when I had such bad luck with the Bosch, but since switching to the Rinnai it has been great.

Layout and sizing of the water lines in your house may be a limiting factor too though - all of my main hot water lines (a loop in the basement) are 3/4" with only 1/2" branches to individual fixtures, whereas it is more common to see only a short run of 3/4" from the heater and then all 1/2" from there. This (staying with 1/2" pipe) is done to minimize the wait for hot water at the farther fixtures (1 second per foot for 1/2", 3 seconds per foot for 3/4"). Since I have a recirc loop, I opted for the larger main to be able to maintain higher volumes and flows in the main. Also, by having the larger volume in the main, there is less chance for a single upstream tap to steal flow from downstream lines. You can only get so many GPM through 1/2" pipe, so if the shower is at the end of that pipe, and you turn on another item between the source and the shower, you will start to starve the shower. The 3/4" pipe has about 2 1/4 times more capacity than the 1/2" pipe (2.25x cross-sectional area), so it sees less drop in flow from individual 1/2" drops being turned on.

gsganzer - If you are considering a tankless to replace a tank unit, you need to look very long and hard at the gas supply sizing requirements for the tankless, and the exhaust venting requirements. You CANNOT use standard flue vents (often PVC) for the tankless units - they require a special high-temp stainless steel vent for corrosion resistance and air-tight seal, due to the extremely high BTU output they have when operating. They also cannot be combined with any other gas appliance flue vents (such as a furnace). Also, you will find (again because of the high BTU output) that the standard gas supply line sizes will be too small for a tankless unit compared to a standard tank one. Tankless will require no less than 3/4" black iron pipe (larger if the run is longer or has more elbows/fittings or other appliances on it), whereas your standard 40,000 to 80,000 BTU tank heaters are 1/2" black or SS corrugated pipe.

A "room sealed" unit can be installed basically anywhere that is not going to be bothered by the noise (they produce a bit of a fan noise from the makeup blower on the heat exchanger/burner assembly). A dedicated closet or other special room is not required, although you do have some clearances that must be maintained above and below the unit (the top gets a bit warm, and the bottom has all the connections and the PRV valve). Also, the PRV valve must be routed to where it can drain without threatening to flood a finished floor or get blocked by possible flooding (just as with a standard water heater - per code leaving 6" air gap from the PRV drain to any floor drain or floor surface). The biggest factors in a successful installation, though, are the length and complication of the exhaust (more length = less efficiency and more $$$ to install) and the different gas line requirements. One contractor I talked with said they will often install the unit in the attic space of a house, since it makes a short straight run up to exhaust it out the roof, is easy to vent the PRV drain to an eave vent, is usually easy(er) to retro-fit a gas line to the attic - often through a garage wall, and the unit has a wired remote anyway (at least many of them do).
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #13  
I first bought a Bosch as well, but returned it before I ever installed it when I sat down and went through all the specs. I have had two Rinnai units installed for over two years. I have a standard 200k btu residential unit in my guest house and a larger commercial Rinnai (they are brown) upstairs in my main house. The commercial units will go up to 180 degrees on the remote control temp pad. I didn't realize how hot that is until after I tried it. That is way too hot. The residential units go up to 120, and they default to 108 degrees whenever the power goes out.

The unit in the guest house is installed in a small utility room that is sealed. I changed plans and mounted the Rinnai to the outside wall due to the cost of the intake/exhaust pipe required with the units. We have very strict inspectors and I had my units professionally installed from factory authorized Rinnai techs who were certified by Rinnai for installation. The installation in the small room passed inspection no problem. Also, we have been very pleased with both units. I have a large family and we have 6 showers that could possibly be on at one time. We have never been short on hot water. I still have a 70 gallon tank water heater for the lower portion of my main house. Whenever it gets old, it will be replaced with another commercial Rinnai.

I can't see any advantage to keeping a huge amount of water hot at all times after seeing how nice the tankless units are. I agree with the installers and the inspector in that the tank water heater will soon be a thing of the past. They are extremely inefficient when compared to the tankless models, and they take up so much more space. After a bit of research, I see that the U.S. is about the only place in the world that still uses the wasteful tank dinosaurs.
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #14  
Dargo said:
I first bought a Bosch as well, but returned it before I ever installed it when I sat down and went through all the specs. I have had two Rinnai units installed for over two years. I have a standard 200k btu residential unit in my guest house and a larger commercial Rinnai (they are brown) upstairs in my main house. The commercial units will go up to 180 degrees on the remote control temp pad. I didn't realize how hot that is until after I tried it. That is way too hot. The residential units go up to 120, and they default to 108 degrees whenever the power goes out.

The unit in the guest house is installed in a small utility room that is sealed. I changed plans and mounted the Rinnai to the outside wall due to the cost of the intake/exhaust pipe required with the units. We have very strict inspectors and I had my units professionally installed from factory authorized Rinnai techs who were certified by Rinnai for installation. The installation in the small room passed inspection no problem. Also, we have been very pleased with both units. I have a large family and we have 6 showers that could possibly be on at one time. We have never been short on hot water. I still have a 70 gallon tank water heater for the lower portion of my main house. Whenever it gets old, it will be replaced with another commercial Rinnai.

I can't see any advantage to keeping a huge amount of water hot at all times after seeing how nice the tankless units are. I agree with the installers and the inspector in that the tank water heater will soon be a thing of the past. They are extremely inefficient when compared to the tankless models, and they take up so much more space. After a bit of research, I see that the U.S. is about the only place in the world that still uses the wasteful tank dinosaurs.

The Rinnai will run without electricity? I have the older model, I think the 2350 or whatever it was called in 2001. Back then it did not come with a remote.
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #15  
Dargo said:
The residential units go up to 120, and they default to 108 degrees whenever the power goes out.

I am (pretty) sure mine is a residential unit (2532 FFU) - white cover and everything - but I can crank mine up to 140-degrees. It defaults to 115 if I cut the power to the unit (unplug it from the outlet) and then turn it back on. I keep it at 125 and never change it...just too much of a pain in the butt to run down the the master bathroom to bump it up 10 degrees or down 10 degrees or whatever. That's why faucets have a hot AND a cold tap (or a mix control on the mixing valves). Besides, if I started to screw with it all the time, it would screw up my settings on the shower and bath temp valves - which could be dangerous when I've got little kids that like to start their own bath water. :eek:
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #16  
LC Brewing said:
I am (pretty) sure mine is a residential unit (2532 FFU) - white cover and everything - but I can crank mine up to 140-degrees.

Yes, it is the next size up residential unit than what I have in my guest house. Rinnai color codes the units; white for residential and brown for commercial. Supposedly (other than size) the only difference is that most places do not want a residential unit to be able to go up to more than 140 degrees. After feeling how hot 180 is, I'd tend to agree.

My installer told me today that he thought that my residential unit was only 199,000 btu and the commercial was 250,000 btu. He also told me that he is now not allowed to install the commercial units in a residential location unless he changes a module that allows the temp to go over 140. In other words, you can get the same btu in a residential unit, only you cannot have it go up to 180 degrees. As I said, that really isn't a bad idea; especially if you have kids.
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #17  
What's the take on electric models as there is no hope for NG in my area. The future for NG is very bleak where I am.

Steve
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #18  
I posted a short reply to CurlyDave's recent (yesterday) question on electric vs LPG vs tank water heaters. In a nutshell, my brother-in-law has an electric tankless and is generally satisfied with it. However, he has stated that when he builds his next house, he will probably switch to LPG tankless(he, like I, prefers to build out of town a bit where NG isn't available). His biggest issue is having to dedicate roughly 1/4 of his total electrical service (400 amps to his house total, 120 amps to the water heater I believe) to nothing but the water heater. Add to that the electric forced-air heat pump, and you've got a lot of high-amperage breakers that don't leave a lot for everything else.
 
/ Tankless water heater code question #19  
LC Brewing said:
I posted a short reply to CurlyDave's recent (yesterday) question on electric vs LPG vs tank water heaters. In a nutshell, my brother-in-law has an electric tankless and is generally satisfied with it. However, he has stated that when he builds his next house, he will probably switch to LPG tankless(he, like I, prefers to build out of town a bit where NG isn't available). His biggest issue is having to dedicate roughly 1/4 of his total electrical service (400 amps to his house total, 120 amps to the water heater I believe) to nothing but the water heater. Add to that the electric forced-air heat pump, and you've got a lot of high-amperage breakers that don't leave a lot for everything else.

Out here in California, you never consider electric as an alternative. I would go NG or LPG for sure. ELectric may be quite efficient as an end product, but to make that power, the efficiency changes rather fast. Don't count on electrical power being cheap in the future unless we go nuclear or solar panels get real cheap.
 

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