TC35 Shuttle Shift, Won't Engage When Hot

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

Hello all,

I have a 2001 TC35 that developed a shifting problem last fall. When mowing, about an hour, the shuttle shift would gradually get more difficult to go into Fwd or Rev. I would eventually almost always have to come to a stop and double or triple shift in order to get it to go in. Then eventually, maybe after an hour and a half of running, it would no longer go into gear at all. I'd park it where it stood, wait an hour for it to cool down, and then go out and finish up my mowing.

This happened to me the last two or three times I mowed the lawn. Shifts fine when cold, no shifty shifty when up to temp.

Two things preceded this problem:
1-When I was out brush hogging a sapling that did not get fully chewed up stabbed the rubber boot (P/N SBA398120860) that connects the two metal tubes that run from the hydraulic pump to the hydraulic filter.
2-I did the 1000 hour service on the tractor. So I changed the hydraulic filter and all the hydraulic fluid. I used a NH filter and used Traveller Premium fluid from Tractor Supply. This is the same fluid I used at the 500 hour service.

This winter I only used the tractor 3 times to push back the snow piles and it never got warm enough to give me any issues. I've contacted two NH dealers and neither had any ideas for me.
Spring is coming and I need to start thinking about this again. I kind of hope that it cured itself over the winter but I really have my doubts.

Anyone heard of this before, I couldn't find anything with my searches? Any ideas at all?

 

[Harry in Ky]

Any ideas at all? Only one. You probably have synchronizer that's in bad shape. You stated that as the problem comes on you "almost always" have to come to a stop to shift, then it gets worse. Just my opinion here, but I think with any gear drive transmission, whether it's sliding gear or constant mesh, syncronized or non synchronized, You ALWAYS come to a stop before shifting fwd/rev. Your salesman may have told you shuttle shifting while in motion is possible (and it may be, for a while), but the wear items within the synchronizer may see it differently.

 

[RickB]

Any ideas at all? Only one. You probably have synchronizer that's in bad shape. You stated that as the problem comes on you "almost always" have to come to a stop to shift, then it gets worse. Just my opinion here, but I think with any gear drive transmission, whether it's sliding gear or constant mesh, syncronized or non synchronized, You ALWAYS come to a stop before shifting fwd/rev. Your salesman may have told you shuttle shifting while in motion is possible (and it may be, for a while), but the wear items within the synchronizer may see it differently.

Exactly.

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

I was unaware of this. I thought that was the point of the shuttle shift. Easy fwd / rev and all but not needing to come to a complete stop.
I do a LOT of shuttle shifting when I mow. I only break out a push mower maybe 2 or 3 times a summer. So it is maybe 10 shuttles per tree Probably 30 trees plus all of the other inherent back and forth movement.

Anyone have a diagram or explanation of what gears and shifting mechanisms are where in the trany? I have looked through the parts diagrams at Messicks. It's not like they label anything like Gear 1,2,3,4; Range 1,2,3; or fwd/rev. Having difficulty making heads or tails from it all. Obviously, I'm looking for the syncro that might be the culprit.

I told the dealers about my shifting habits and they were not phased by it when I told them. Said I thought it would have the shifts of a 3000 hour tractor at 1000 hours. They still said they hadn't heard of it.

I'm still wondering why it would have shown up when it did after the service, or maybe the brush hogging in the confined spaces of a former tree farm finally did it in...

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

I was unaware of this. I thought that was the point of the shuttle shift. Easy fwd / rev and all but not needing to come to a complete stop.
I do a LOT of shuttle shifting when I mow. I only break out a push mower maybe 2 or 3 times a summer. So it is maybe 10 shuttles per tree Probably 30 trees plus all of the other inherent back and forth movement.

Anyone have a diagram or explanation of what gears and shifting mechanisms are where in the trany? I have looked through the parts diagrams at Messicks. It's not like they label anything like Gear 1,2,3,4; Range 1,2,3; or fwd/rev. Having difficulty making heads or tails from it all. Obviously, I'm looking for the syncro that might be the culprit.

I told the dealers about my shifting habits and they were not phased by it when I told them. Said I thought it would have the shifts of a 3000 hour tractor at 1000 hours. They still said they hadn't heard of it.

I'm still wondering why it would have shown up when it did after the service, or maybe the brush hogging in the confined spaces of a former tree farm finally did it in...

 

[Harry in Ky]

I fear you may be confusing "shuttle shift" with "power shuttle". Two completely different animals. A power shuttle has lubricated clutch packs designed to take such abuse. Shuttle shift merely puts forward and reverse on one lever and offers both directions in all speeds. Power shuttle transmissions are, of course a bit more expensive, and come with a different set of problems.
As for your repairs. You need a bit more than online parts diagrams if you plan to change a bad synchronizer. I'm sure manuals are available for your tractor, and you will need at least the transmission section. I believe you will need to access the trans from both ends in order to remove the necessary shaft(s) that must be out on the table before the synchro comes out.

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

No, I imagine that I would take this to a dealer for repair. I was just looking to see if I could get an idea of what this might run me at least in parts and how much needs to be tore down in order to do it.

Per the New Holland website

SYNCHRONIZED SHUTTLE SHIFT (SSS)

If you perform tasks that require shifting between forward and reverse repeatedly, and you prefer a traditional transmission, the SSS transmission can make it easier. The Boomer 30/35 utilize 12x12 SSS transmissions, while the larger Boomer 40/50 use 16x16 SSS transmissions. The shuttle lever (mounted on the left of the steering column) and the gears are synchronized, so there's no need to come to a complete stop before shuttling or changing gears.

Still dismayed/confused on this being the issue. Never ever heard a grind or anything under my understanding of normal shuttle shifting.

The b!tch of it is I'm skeptical that they will ever be able to tear it apart to see what is happening since it needs to be hot from running for an hour before it exhibits the problem. I just don't want to get a $2500 bill after they try something and then have it not solve the problem.

 

[LarryD]

Your number of direction changes sounds like a perfect situation for a hydro drive, or possibly a good ZTR to mow around the trees.

 

[Btown]

Sycronized Shuttle Shift can change gears 1-4 without stopping. But range changes and direction changes you should be stopped. Like others said a Power Shuttle Shift can change from foreword and reverse without stopping or even using the clutch.

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

Your number of direction changes sounds like a perfect situation for a hydro drive, or possibly a good ZTR to mow around the trees.

I wholeheartedly agree. I bought the tractor when I was plowing up plots for a Christmas tree farm. These days I mostly mow with it and a hydro would be a much better option. I think a ZTR is out of the question due to side hills and problems mowing when the grass is damp.

Looking through the parts breakdown on Messicks...

03.08 Lower Transmission gears - It looks like the fwd/rev selector runs through gear 26. Maybe when the machine gets hot the needle bearing 29 has issues rotating freely and locks me out. It would be about $175 in parts to replace shaft 25 and everything on it.

That being said, if it is on the 03.07 Upper Transmission gears it mates up at gear 11 thru gear 16. Replacing everything in there (including the syncro) would run about $710 in parts.

Then who knows how much labor it would take to split the tractor and all. $1000 if I were really lucky.

 

[dave1949]

Are you sure it not a clutch issue? When the shuttle doesn't want to move, can you change gears and ranges okay? You might check the clutch adjustment, just because. It's free.

I have a 12x12 gear w/shuttle. I stop to change directions and use the clutch too. I really like the placement of the shuttle lever. I can steer and shuttle with one hand.

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

I don't think it is a clutch issue. From what I remember every other lever moves freely. As it warms back up I will get her back out and see if I can reenact the problem.

Plan is to open up the plate on top of the tranny while cold. Hopefully I can observe the operation of the forks and see how everything is supposed to work. Then I'll put the plate back on and get her warmed up. hopefully I'll be on flat ground up by the house when it no longer goes into fwd or rev. At that point I will remove the plate again and see what is not moving as it should.

Not sure if I'll be able to see the issue or not but I don't think I would mess anything up by trying.

 

[jimmysisson]

I don't get why the manual doesn't talk about needing to declutch to use the shuttle function. They say synchronized, but that wouldn't work for f/r. And why would it describe shifting on the go between gears and no clutch? You'd still have to declutch.
Still, what you describe sure sounds like a failed synchro on the reverser. Bummer.
Jim

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

The TC35 doesn't have a Power Reverser or EHSSS so with this transmission you DO need to press the clutch when both shifting gears and when shifting between fwd and rev. I always do that. But the shifting between fwd and rev IS supposed to be synchronized as well. They tell you in their marketing materials that you do NOT need to come to a complete stop when shifting between fwd and rev. That is what people are suggesting as the culprit for the problem.

 

[boatyard]

The operator's manual for my 2005 TC35A with the," Synchronized Shuttle SHift Transmission" says,"The shuttle shift lever,2, is used to engage the transmission into the forward or reverse mode while depressing the clutch pedal. Move the lever frontward for forward and rearward for reverse travel The shuttle shift lever must be in the neutral[middle] position to activate the safety start system and allow the engine to start."
When plowing snow I have always shifted forward and reverse while braking or coasting to a stop, with the clutch depressed. I do not let the clutch out until the tractor has completely stopped. No need to use the clutch as a brake.
I don't know where I heard that this was OK. I thought I had read it in the manual. It has always seemed OK, no grinding or anything of that sort. It is actually very smooth. Should I stop doing this?

 

[jimmysisson]

I it were mine and ten years old, I'd stop to f/r shift. You're putting wear on the synchronizer making it slow and align the gear sets.
Jim

 

[RickB]

Let's think about what a synchronizer does. In this case it disengages from one drive element spinning in one direction and immediately engages (or tries to engage) a similar drive element spinning in the opposite direction (if the tractor continues to move). Some of the mating surfaces and friction elements within the synchronizer are soft yellow metal. This is a part that will have a finite number of harsh shifts in its lifetime regardless of the operating propaganda published in the manual. Why would we not come to a full stop before completing a direction change? The tractor will surely come to a halt one way or another in the process anyway.

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

Over the last couple days I have done the following:

1-Drained the hydraulic oil.

2-Popped off the top cover on the trans and taken some pics.

Right side of tractor - Forward gear engaged


Right side of tractor - Neutral engaged


Right side of tractor - Reverse gear engaged


Left side of tractor - Forward gear engaged


Left side of tractor - Neutral engaged


Left side of tractor - Reverse gear engaged


Left side of the tractor - Gears 1-4


Left side of tractor - Ranges 1-3

3-Removed the ball detent for review

Ball detent mechanism & paper towel used to wipe magnet off
The ball is in pristine shape, no wear in the chrome.

4- I fished in the bottom of the sump fwd/rev section with a magnet.
I did not find any metal shavings. Just a little gunk shown on the paper towel above.

5-Cleaned the suction strainer

Top of the suction strainer


Bottom of the suction strainer

This could potentially be cause for concern BUT this strainer has never been removed for cleaning ever. A lot of the shavings were long and curled which to me would indicate that they were from the initial manufacture. On the other hand a lot were just metal filings. Note: I don't see any wear other than very light wear on gears etc. anywhere in the transmission.


Crud I got off the strainer


The strainer after cleaning it off with brake cleaner and before I re-installed it.

6-I have replaced the hydraulic oil filter


In the near future I am planning on doing the following:

A-Refill the sump with New Holland fluid.
Question, when I went to the dealer they gave me MAT 3540 fluid. My book says to use NH 134D Fluid. The bucket says that it is a replacement for Multi G 134. Does anyone know if Multi G 134 was a replacement for NH 134D? I'll probably be calling the dealer on this. I don't want to put anything in there but the "perfect" fluid to rule that out.

B-Re-install cover plate and seat

C-Run it for a couple hours to get it up to temp.

If the issue goes away I will chalk it up to the fluid, the strainer, or the hydraulic filter.


If the issue remains I will:

I-Park the tractor and turn it off to see if the clutch may be causing the issue. Theory here would be that the clutch or throwout bearing or whatever does not totally disengage when warm. This would allow me to take it out of gear but not put it back in when the motor is running, which is what I'm experiencing. So in theory if this is the problem then immediately after I shut the tractor off I should be able to shift it from fwd to rev.

II-Take the seat and cover off of the tractor and take the temperature of the fluid in the transmission

III-Check to see what moves and what doesn't. Check the linkages, the fork, the ball detent. If I can't see anything due to the fluid being in the tractor I will drain it.

IV-Last thing would be to measure the clutch pedal free play when hot and potentially adjust it to where it was before the 1000 service. As part of this service I did adjust the clutch pedal free play. It was getting to the point where I needed to have my foot firmly to the floor when clutching and it would engage pretty quickly after releasing the clutch. By adjusting the free play, which is now in the middle of the spec, I should be alleviating any problem with the clutch staying engaged but it is something that I did change at that service and it needs to be looked into.


Manual


Current pic showing how far the pedal returnes after hitting tension

Anything I'm missing? I'm hoping to get the fluid grade figured out tomorrow and maybe do my testing Wednesday or Thursday after work.

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

http://youtu.be/s7aNX3bayu4
Video from left side

http://youtu.be/ZjVSMHlqnB4
Video from right side

 

[Harry in Ky]

I think at this point you're covering all the bases, and short of actually tearing it down, doing just about all you can.
For what it's worth, when I study your photos it looks to me that the color of both the forward and reverse synchro rings seem darker than those of the speed change units. With forward even darker than reverse. To me that indicates possible heat damage, which goes along with the whole concept of the problem. I can't comment on what that particular synchronizer has on the interior wear surfaces, but it may be in part, some of the dark, stringy material you found on the screen. That too, goes along with the symptoms. If it's on the screen, it's not doing what it was put there for.
My view on the colors may be just a difference in the lighting, but you can judge for yourself since you're seeing it first hand.