Tell me how to create and renovate pastures

[Z-Michigan]

This thread slightly overlaps with my thread in the buying/comparing forum but is intended to take a different tack. We have a 20 acre horse farm in lower Michigan. We have 2 horses right now, and don't expect more than 4 at most; it is possible we might also have 1-2 steers and/or a llama at some point. We currently have 2 acres in pasture and 4 in hay, but we are planning to improve that to 4+ acres in pasture and 6+ in hay during the next year. The land is gently sloping and is generally well drained, although not right now with our mild and wet winter so far (3.6" of rain in the last 5 weeks!). The soil type is a sandy loam on the existing pastures and a straight loam on the proposed new pastures. The land was used as farmland until 1998 and has been a horse farm since 1999. There are a lot of rocks in the soil that sprout every spring (did I mention that the property has multiple rock piles from picking rocks over the years, with an estimated grand total of 150+ tons?).

I would like guidance on renovating the existing pastures and creating new ones. I'll separate it out:

Existing Pastures
There are two pastures of about 1 acre each, fenced in with electric rope. One pasture is only 15 feet from our barn (both hay storage and horse stalls) and has a run-in shed for the horses. The other pasture is farther from the barn and has no shed right now. The prior owners, who moved out in October 2006, had a total of 7 horses on the two pastures, which is too high a load for reasonable grazing. So the grass was very short when we moved in, with large bare patches. In addition, since horses like to be close to the fences, the dirt next to the fences is totally bare and is worn down almost a foot lower than the dirt level in the middle of the pasture and immediately outside the fence. On two sides of the pasture, this low area has become a drainage channel for our recent heavy rains. There is also a beaten down area in front of the run-in shed and by the gate to the barn area. Finally, the shed is sagging a bit in the center and probably needs some protection from runoff on the upslope side, and possibly some way of digging under its center post and propping it up to prevent further sagging.

I would like to do the following:
-Level the dirt so that the edges and beaten down areas are no longer lower than other areas. We may need to add soil or scrape soil from center area of pasture.
-Create a modest channel in the center of the pasture to hopefully serve as the runoff channel and avoid further runoff down the edges which are always going to be more stressed due to horse habits.
-Remove or spread out existing manure piles and hopefully get them incorporated into the soil.
-Reseed whole pasture with pasture grass and allow it to get well established.
-Protect the shed from further damage, and prop up its foundation if possible.

Ideally I would get all this done with nothing but the box blade, FEL, chain drag harrow, and mower on my soon to be purchased tractor. Not sure how realistic that is; wondering if I'll need a straight rear blade for the grading, and a tiller for preparing the soil. I can borrow a tiller if need be (my wife's uncle has one).

New Pastures
Our property has a 4.5 acre field of sparse weeds with a few clumps of bunchgrass. As far as we can tell there had been grass on the field but it was killed with chemicals (Roundup, etc.) in advance of planting something, and then nothing was ever planted. The soil seems fine and we are getting no benefit from the weeds, so our plan is to seed it with grass and use part of it for hay and part for pasture. No leveling or drainage work is needed, but we will need to put in fencing around 2 acres or so to be used as pasture. A farmer relative has told me that we need to kill the weeds with herbicide before putting down grass, which would require us contracting with a farmer (apparently the strength of herbicide that you would reasonably use for this requires a special license, which most farmers would have but most other people wouldn't). Here I think I'm looking for more general guidance, mostly on any alternative options for preparing for the planting bed instead of using herbicide. Will we get much benefit from having the land tilled, plowed or disked, or can we simply seed on top after a herbicide is applied?

As a tangent to all this, can someone explain the different effects on soil between a chain harrow (english harrow or "drag"), a disk (disk harrow), a cultivator (the kind with tines that dig into the soil, but they aren't plow-shaped), and a plow?

 

[schmism]

wow... im also intrested in the offical answers...

ill post up what ive learned and see how well i do when the guys like "farmwithjunk" post up....

a bottom plow inverts the soil
a disk harrow effectivly breaks up the surface but doesnt invert like a plow
a cultavator will break up the surface and weeds but with less overall disturbance than a disk.

from my reading pasture needs disking every XXXX based on use. for a number of reasons. including breaking up compacted areas. arration, prep for replanting your pasture (weed elimination)

I thought the typical way to distrubute manure was to put it in a spreder, spred it and then disc it in. followed by a fresh planting... but time of year bla bla bla factors in but thats all over my head....

 

[thingy]

4-5 acres with just weeds,no grass,,thats weird,,yeah I guess maybe some body coulda sprayed it,,people are herbicide crazy it seems.
What I'd do first would be to take soil samples and get soil tested,,,cause you probably need to add lime and fertilizer of some sort,,getting your soil tested should tell you all this,,state dept of ag,,,maybe,,,
Than you need a disc or a harrow drag,,,and you need to find some kinda grass mixture that works for your area.
I wouldn't spray any more herbicide,,,just work the soil up,so it will let grass seed sprout, after you get them weeds mowed down,,might not even have to cut them.Once you get grass growing it will take over somewhat,,and you'll always have weeds anyways,,,probably lime it and fertilize it first,,than work ground up someway,,than seed and seed it heavy.
As far as the other wore out eroded pasture area,don't know,need to get horses off it first,,,disc,,it up real good?,,,hard to tell,,but if dirt is missing,,not much you can do other than kinda level it all,,if area is small enough guess you could get soil carried in or something.
But the horses should stay off of what ever you do for a year or so,[won't be any grass there anyways],to let the grass grow and get some roots,,,thingy

 

[LoneCowboy]

well
couple different problems here.

The totally beat down, completely dirt areas are just solid, they need to be ripped and tilled (disced) because the grass doesn't have a chance.
This is what we use in my business to that. (cat 1, only works up to 50PTO horse, above that, you probably need to go to a subsoiler)

The really cool thing about it is that you can put a landscape (york) rake on it and it just pulls the rocks right along. You can till after that, you probably don't really need to, a couple passes with this and it's real fine. After you do this, you could disc it or till it to help break it up further (and kill the weeds). get it good and smooth with the chain harrow (flipped over) and then broadcast seed it (or drill it) and chain harrow it more aggressivly to bury it and pray for rain. Actually works surprisingly well.

the area that is all weeds needs to be sprayed. You can spray your own property, you can't spray others without a applicator license. Just pay the neighbor, cheaper in the long run, get the weeds killed down (3 to 4 weeks when growing) chain harrow aggressively and overseed (broadcast) with new seed, chain harrow again to bury and pray for rain.

The area that just needs a little help (along with above)
Get a Aerway Pasture Aerator (made up by you) and aerate before overseeding. AerWay Home Page
Does amazing things for the ground. (they should pay me, instead of me paying them ). Improves drainage, improves the soil, lets everythign get started. Just great.

What you may not realize is that most tractor places rent a lot fo implements, so if you aren't going to use them much (like the aerator, which is insano expensive), you just rent it for $100 or so for a day. This allows you to get things going before you really have money to buy all the implements.

Also, when seeding, go talk to either your county ag agent or your seed place, they'll have good recomendations.

 

[Doc_Bob]

I would let someone farm most of it until you get your 1 acre sections done. You make some money, the weeds get knocked back and then, when you have time to work on the rest, it is ready for making into pasture.
Bob

 

[john_bud]

You can use the scarifiers in the box blade to loosen up the soil. Shorten the top link so the box tilts forward (nose low - tail high), drop the scarifiers all the way down and go N to S, then E to W, then diagonal. It will take lots and lots of passes with some stops to drop off weeds and plants that may stick to the scarifiers. That's a lot of work and you will still have literally millions of weed seeds per square foot waiting to pop out.

A better way would be to use a bottom plow (a 50 hp utility should be able to pull a 3 bottom easily) and turn the soil over. That buries the seeds, dries out roots and brings nutrients to the surface. Then lime according to test results. Probably 1-3 ton per acre - the feed mill may be able to cheaply spread for you. I do food plots and had one 3 acre plot spread with 9 ton for under $100 (total delivery, spreading and the lime). If you tell them to coordinate with other work it's good for all involved. After spreading the lime, spread 1/2 of the fertilizer. Then disc a week later and the clods will fall apart easiliy, provided there was no rain. Spread the remaining fertilizer on the smooth soil then spread the pasture seeds. A mix of grasses and clovers (white, medium red etc) with some ledpezia and maybe even chicory and purple top turnips would be nice. DON'T just spread seed heavy! Spread according to the recommedations. If you are using a crank spreader or push spreader go 50% more. You should be able to buy a 2 or 3 bottom plow at auction for $1-200 and an 8' double gang disc for $2-300.

Chain harrow is used for final smothing. People use all kinds of cheap stuff for final smoothing including bed frames, rolls of chain link fence, couple logs tied together. If you have to move dirt to the edge "path", try and get it from some other area and dump it with the FEL and move it uniformly with the box blade. That way you won't be digging holes in the pasture. More transport, but less finesse is needed.


Let the forage grow until 12-18" high, then either cut it or let the horses out. Let them nibble it down, them move them to a different pasture so it can recover. If they avoid the weeds, cut the pasture. Keeping it active and cut 3-4 times a year will help the forage plants out compete the weeds. If the weeds are bad, there are target herbicides that will kill weeds but not the good forage plants. Depending on soil, rain, climate certain forages will do better. After the first cutting, you may need to add more seeds of one or more varieties. Spread any needed lime and fertilizer in spring and fall, lightly disc to encorporate into the soil as required.

You can google online for more details on what to plant and how to keep it nice.

jb

 

[andrewj]

im gonna say what I feel then go and read the replies. plowing it up, planting and waiting would take current pasture out of commission for 2 years, depending on you and your growing season next year. What you can do to current pasture, is "no till" drill it with wheat/oats/fescue with the understanding that it will be plowed up in two years when your other pasture is capable of producing feed.

Your drainage problem: go outside during the hardest rain you have, and see where water comes from, where it goes, where you prefer it to go: then hitch up a middlebuster and cut your new ditches where you want them. make them pretty later in dry weather. (in wet ground, you get ONE PASS witwh the middlebuster before your tires make their own ditches!)

as far as renovating pasture when you are able to plow it up, you need to "rip" as deep as possible to break hardpan and allow water to soak in to the earth: you are essentially increasing the water carrying capacity of the ground before runnoff happens.

get a soil test. add lime or sulfur to correct PH. add chicken litter for fertilizer, cheaper than buying NPand K.

hope I helped.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Thanks, everyone. Lots of useful info here and I need a day or two to digest it all. One question for anyone - several posts say I'll need a year or two for the new pasture to be usable. But when I've repaired lawns here, there is nice grass growing in a month, and in 2-3 months it is very solid and hard to tell from existing growth. What's the difference for a pasture grass? The time to develop a deep root system?

I see several comments about hardpan and breaking the subsoil, and they seem to be from people in hotter, drier climates. Here we get a lot of rain annually and it's spread fairly well throughout the year. A "drought" might mean a month with only 1-2" of rain, or one or two weeks straight without rain. Nothing like a drought out west. Do I still need to worry about subsoil?

I am conscious of horses likely having trampled the existing pasture soil enough that it needs renovation. My wife won't like hearing it, but I'll look into breaking those soils up to get the new grass growing solidly.

One more question - where to get the dirt to regrade the two existing pastures. My property doesn't have an unnecessary hill or any other ready source of soil. I would probably need 10+ yards of soil (maybe much more) to repair the grade, and that's a lot of topsoil to buy. I can obtain fill dirt for the cost of transportation - but of course it will be mostly subsoil with little organic matter. Am I likely to have any success if I start filling those areas using fill dirt and then mix in a bit of existing topsoil and a healthy measure of horse manure? Or is this ineffective and a waste of time? Remember that I'm in a wet and fairly mild climate.

Thanks again.

 

[scott_vt]

I would probably need 10+ yards of soil (maybe much more) to repair the grade, and that's a lot of topsoil to buy. I can obtain fill dirt for the cost of transportation - but of course it will be mostly subsoil with little organic matter. Am I likely to have any success if I start filling those areas using fill dirt and then mix in a bit of existing topsoil

Thanks again.

Good Evenin Z,
Even at @ $20/ yd for screened topsoil thats only $200. 20yds $400 and the stuff that you plant in it will be ready to grow right away. If the areas that your talkin about need a lot of fill, I would fill those areas with clean fill and then spread your topsoil on top.

How is your tractor search goin?

 

[Doc_Bob]

One more question - where to get the dirt to regrade the two existing pastures. My property doesn't have an unnecessary hill or any other ready source of soil. I would probably need 10+ yards of soil (maybe much more) to repair the grade, and that's a lot of topsoil to buy.

10 yards? That is nothing. Wait til you buy it and spread it, then you will see that 100 yards is starting to get into real dirt. 10 yards does not go very far.
Bob

 

[john_bud]

10 yards? That is nothing. Wait til you buy it and spread it, then you will see that 100 yards is starting to get into real dirt. 10 yards does not go very far.
Bob

Ain't that the truth!


Z,
If you just find a spot that you don't mind being low and start digging there, you can save that few hundred bucks. Scrape off the top soil and pile it separately. Then use the bottom soil for the filling. No matter what you do, the areas around the fence are going to be paths with not much growing due to the horses running there. I wouldn't sweat it too much. It will need extra lime and fertilizer, and the horses will be adding some organic matter.

If you prep, seed and use a cultipacker in the early spring, it will firm the soil and you will be able to put the horses on in the late summer or early fall.

jb

 

[Z-Michigan]

Thanks again. I did some quick calculations and it looks like 60 yards of soil is more like what I need (160 feet long x 10 feet wide x 1 foot deep / 27 cubic feet per yard). I guess I'll price both topsoil and fill dirt costs.

I'm hoping to get some grass growing that will stand up to heavy traffic. From what I've read Kentucky Bluegrass forms a really tough sod that withstands grazing. It also grows terrific in lower Michigan. Any comments?

 

[Mike120]

Z

Don't forget about compaction after you put it down.

Mike

 

[thingy]

I wouldn't bring in soil unless I was a kennedy,,,you gotta work with what you got,,,,pasture renovations,,,maybe refence it,,temporary,,,,section it up,,,do a couple acres this coming year,,,than couple next,,be more budget wise,,and let you know what you did wrong first time,,,,disc or one of those cultivater things they sell on northern tool ,,,,not a subsurface tearer up thing,,alls you need to do is scratch the surface up good,,,to let tiny grass seed to grow... there ain't no difference getting pasture grass to grow than any other,,,but,,you gotta keep the animals off of it for a year,[or more] in order for it to take root and spread some,,,other wise you will have bare spots or just plain bare,,,section it up,,keep you animal pop. down for three -four years,,,[or longer],,,,,otherwise,,you'll just be raising dirt,,,,thingy

 

[Z-Michigan]

OK - spring is fast approaching and this is now taking on some urgency. Let me start by saying - I now have a tractor! I have a JD 5105, 4wd and FEL, this is a 50hp tractor for those not familiar with them. I have loaded rears and with FEL weight is probably around 6500lbs, just FYI in terms of my ability to pull ground-engaging implements (and on the bad side, compact soil). I currently have a rotary cutter (brushhog) and angle rear blade, but so far no other implements.

The plan is still to renovate the existing pastures and then to take the 4.5 acre weed field and turn it into 2.5 acres hay and 2.0 acres pasture. I am planning to use an alfalfa/grass mix for hay and all-grass for pasture. Over time I will also be expanding the other hayfield at its edges by pushing in forest and removing debris piles - this will probably be only 1000sf at a time.

We are still debating spraying the weedfield. It seems that I would have to wait til it greens up, then get it sprayed, then wait 2 weeks for it to die down before planting new grass. A lot of time to waste, IMHO. But then I don't know exactly how long tillage will take for it either.

I am convinced, although my wife is not, that the pasture soil is compacted and needs some kind of tillage. My wife is generally reluctant to buy implements, especially if they will only get used once (in her view), so it would be difficult for me to buy every tool that might be useful. With that said, I would like to know what the one most versatile implement I can get for all these purposes would be. I'm leaning towards the Landpride scarifier bar, but would like comments. I'd like something that can loosen dirt fairly deep, but a true subsoiler seems like a one-trick pony with limited use. A chisel plow would also seem like a good option, and seems to be pretty similar in effect to the scarifier. However, it may be easier for me to find the scarifier than a chisel plow, at least in this area! Ideally whatever I get would also be useful to prepare garden plots for veggies. Is there anything I can use for all this?

 

[Egon]

Get yourself a nice rototiller and some diamond drag harrows. Those two should cover all your jobs.

A broadcast spreader would also be nice for lime and fertilizer and seeds.

Don't get in a rush planting as you have to wait out the weed seeds deposited over the years.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Thanks. My concern about a rototiller is that my soil is chock full of rocks, and it seems like I would break the tiller or at least bend lots of tines, even with a slipclutch. Comments?

I failed to mention but I am still planning to get a chain drag harrow, just don't have it yet.

Also - wanted to edit the post but couldn't - would I get any tillage benefit from running a cultivator through the upper layers? Or would it be worth getting one of the cheaper subsoilers from KK or Howse, since they only cost around $120? I guess I really should focus on total cost of implements, not the number... if I'm willing to go with KK, I could probably get a cultivator and subsoiler for $350 or so. I just don't want to get a $600 plow plus a $1500 disk plus other stuff... only because the wife would be very unhappy!

 

[rdln]

Hows about a Michigan TBN get together project in May? Put our heads and implements of destruction together and Bang something out! Take pictures and maybe we could have a 2000 reply post just like dem dar texans.

I agree with most that say use what you have, just redistribute soil.

soil test.

mow

deep rip (a one shank subsoiler) a 5105 wont pull available deep ripper plows (minimum 4-5 shank)

moldboard plow instead of spraying. that 4 acre field sounds devoid of sod so should be easy.

Disc/till/drag/amend/cultipack whatever then seed, drink beer.

 

[bjmad]

Here are some recommendations for your pastures.

1. Soil tests. Take about 10 samples from various areas of where the pasture is going to go. Do not take samples from wet areas. The samples will be from each pasture and kept separately. You can use a ziplock bag to store the samples while you are collecting them and mark each bag from which pasture they came from. Send it in. Normally, your local feed mill can do this. Tell them what you want to plant.

2. After receiving the samples, there will be recommendations on how much lime (if any) you will need per acre and how much fertilizer.

3. New pasture. Once the weeds/grasses are about 4 inches high, spray 2 quarts of Roundup per acre. Wait a few weeks and do it again. I have a 15 gallon spayer and it does one acre. You want to kill as many weeds as possible.

4. If lime is needed, lime and till or disc it in. Do not till or disc more than 4 inches otherwise you are bringing up more dormant weeds seeds. You may also spread half the requried fertilizer and till or disc it in as well at this time. Plowing the field will bring up more dorman weed seeds and also kills the organic matter in the soil. This is why plowing is not performed on many farms anymore.

5. Using a lawn roller or cultipacker, make a firm seed bed. Spread the seed and cultipack at least twice. Firm soil will bring up moisture below the surface much, much better than a loose seed bed and the germination rate will be higher. You can also level your field before you compact and plant. Spread the remaining fertilizer.

6. Tips: You will always have some weeds. Keep them mowed before they turn to seed. Make sure the type of seeds you are planting are inocculated or buy the proper inocculation and do it yourself. Make sure the type of seeds will grow well in wet areas. Not all types of plants thrive in wet or dry conditions.

7. The best time to plant is late July or early August since this is when weeds tend to begin to go dormant. This allows your plants to establish themselves. The field will be ready as a pasture the following summer.

If you have more questions you can pm me and I'll be happy to offer advice. I have been doing this for many years. This is just a brief version and I'm sure you will have more questions.

 

[Z-Michigan]

bjmad, somehow I missed your post til now; I appreciate it!

At this point I have mowed the entire field (brushhog) and am both still choosing my implements and waiting for the soil to dry enough to work. After mowing I have found that the field has only weeds but they are very sparse. Also, we sent in soil for testing almost 3 weeks ago, but are still waiting for the results (not happy with that).

What I am currently planning to do is:
1) Till/rip the field up by using a scarifier, chisel plow or heavy duty cultivator, making 2-4 passes in that number of directions. It will be at least 1-2 weeks before soil is dry enough to do this, maybe longer.

2) Dragging the field 2-4 times with a chain harrow to level it out and firm it up for seeding.

3) Seed the field with a fast growing grass to use both as short-term hay/pasture and as a "smother crop". I'm looking especially at annual ryegrass, but I would appreciate comments and suggestions. Other possibilities would be fescue (endophyte free) and perennial ryegrass. I specifically want something that will outcompete weeds.

4) Use the field this year as hay/pasture. Spray or till individual weeds as they appear, but I'm hoping a healthy fast-growing grass will choke them out.

5) Assuming we planted annual ryegrass, mow really short in late fall and re-seed with a perennial grass that we want, possibly bromegrass. (If we planted fescue or perennial ryegrass, probably do nothing.)

Comments? What implement seems best for step 1? I am not inclined to get a moldboard plow because I do not anticipate a future use for one. (Also, I have had no luck finding a used one cheap - prices I've seen so far on used are pretty close to the $700 for a new 2-bottom one from Farm Force at TSC.) I can think of recurring uses for a scarifier, chisel plow or cultivator though.