Tesla semi

[daugen]

Good stuff... but unless I am missing something, you are not accounting for the energy required to mine and produce heavy metals for batteries.

I'm very impressed with Redneck's data, seems sensible, but yeah I think you have to go further back.
Nothing like a nasty toxic strip mine to take the bloom off the ecological rose

 

[flusher]

Yes, the mining, processing, and disposal of heavy metals to manufacture these batteries is not 'clean'. Tesla (started in California) had to locate their big battery plant outside of Reno, NV because California said, HECK NO! It's one of those... "Yeah I want it!... but not in my back yard."

CA wanted that Tesla Gigafactory in a bad way. They were just outbid by Nevada politicians who wanted it more.

The lithium battery does not contain the nasty heavy metals like mercury, cadmium or lead. The metals used in these batteries contain cobalt, copper and nickel, which are common metals used in all kinds of products.

And lithium itself is not a heavy metal--it's the lowest mass metal on the periodic table.

It's commonly used in medications called antimanic agents to treat mania, bi-polar disorder, depression.

 

[toppop52]

We have a friend who had a first-generation Prius which he traded in at over 400,000 miles (mostly in Upstate NY) with the original battery pack. He said that it had lost a little bit of capacity but not a whole lot. Maybe 80% of what it was originally?

Aaron Z

That痴 good real world info. Now it would be interesting to know how it痴 efficiency was at 400000 vs new and how that stacks up against an internal combustion vehicle of high efficiency.

 

[toppop52]

Average refinery turns out about 19 gal of gasoline and 11 gal of diesel from 42 gal (1 barrel) of crude.
The refinery consume about 7 kWh/gal of fuel to do so.

1 barrel of crude oil is equivalent to 1675.5 kWh of energy.
Refinery produces about 19 gal of gasoline equivalent to 644.6 kWh
Refinery produces about 11 gal of diesel equivalent to 417 kWh
Refinery uses about 7.4 kWh/gal to produce the fuels. Since the 7.4 kWh was generated at about 38% efficiency the actual energy consumption per gallon is 7.4/0.38=19.5
Sum it together:
(644.6+417-(19+11)*19.5)/1675.5=27.9 % efficient
ICE is about 20% at the best day.
Therefore it converts 20*.279=5.6% energy contained in the crude when it reached the refinery.

Average coal burning plant is about 36% efficient, combine cycle plants are pushing 65-70%, Average efficiency of fossil fuel power plant is about 38%. The total efficiency of all power plants combined is somewhat higher but I don't have the number.

The charging cycle of Li-ion batteries is about 99% efficient.
The electronics used to charge the batteries has about 96% efficeincy
The drive motors for cars are about 92% efficent.
To sum it up:
38*0.99*0.96*0.92=33.2% of fuel energy is converted to power.

This assumes the car mechanical losses and energy transportation cost are about the same. The fact is that transportation of electric energy is cheaper but I don't have the numbers.

33.2/5.6=5.92 E cars is about 5.92 time better user of energy.

Even if you use the best scenario of the refinery efficiency and the worst scenario of efficiency of electric power generation the ecar comes 5 times better.
Additionally as the lights are converted to o LED the coal power generation will need the ecars as night load. They will have hard time to stay in business without ecars or utility size energy storage.
Also if ecars are deployed in mass numbers oil might hit 10/barrel. Wouldn't it be nice for you ICE lovers?

I知 still not seeing anything but your say so, where is the proof these numbers are real? I can say anything, but that doesn稚 make it so.

 

[aczlan]

That痴 good real world info. Now it would be interesting to know how it痴 efficiency was at 400000 vs new and how that stacks up against an internal combustion vehicle of high efficiency.

IIRC it got around the same milage (45-52MPG) when he traded it in as it did new.
Now, if he had a lot of long hills to up and down, he probably would have seen worse milage but the hills around here aren't that tall.

Aaron Z

 

[toppop52]

A street near our house see's a lot of summer Harley's. These seem to be ridden by hard of hearing old timers who can only tell if it's running by a throttle blip. Don't see why the vibration doesn't let them know.

Seems some Harley's have a counterbalance shaft but it is design not to eliminate all the vibration. Harley says the customers want vibration to maintain image. And it would seem the throttle blip is required to keep them from stalling. (Two Pistons on same crank throw )

To each his own, HD builds a very popular bike in many styles, it will idle all day without touching the throttle. I rode Japanese bikes for decades, if I bought a new one it would be a Harley. Theyæ±*e just cool!

 

[toppop52]

CA wanted that Tesla Gigafactory in a bad way. They were just outbid by Nevada politicians who wanted it more.

The lithium battery does not contain the nasty heavy metals like mercury, cadmium or lead. The metals used in these batteries contain cobalt, copper and nickel, which are common metals used in all kinds of products.

And lithium itself is not a heavy metal--it's the lowest mass metal on the periodic table.

It's commonly used in medications called antimanic agents to treat mania, bi-polar disorder, depression.

Here is some good honest info. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/archive/lithium_ion_safety_concerns

 

[toppop52]

IIRC it got around the same milage (45-52MPG) when he traded it in as it did new.
Now, if he had a lot of long hills to up and down, he probably would have seen worse milage but the hills around here aren't that tall.

Aaron Z

If you are at 80% rechargeable rate, shouldn’t there be a corresponding loss of driving distance?

 

[CincyFlyer]

Never mind I found the answer. A Chevy volt can not use a Tesla supercharger. The computer systems that regulate charge rates and capacities don't work well with each other. I see this a as a huge hindrance to the EV future.

Chevy Bolt EV mis-advertising access to Tesla Supercharger and CHAdeMO stations it can稚 use | Electrek

Toyota is on the correct path with using a non branded commodity of hydrogen, at a central location, to refill a tank on the vehicle that doesn't require a unique charging methodology.

Part of that is due to the fact that when Tesla instigated the SuperCharger stations, they were set up to charge at a different rate and voltage from the existing standards.

 

[flusher]

Here is some good honest info. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/archive/lithium_ion_safety_concerns

The causes of the lithium battery overheating problems are well known and can be avoided by proper design of the individual battery cell and the entire battery pack.

The small number of problems with lithium batteries in Tesla cars (less than 10) have resulted from damage to the battery itself by road debris and by collisions that damaged the battery itself. To date none of the Tesla car batteries have failed due to thermal runaway.

And within 3-5 years the much safer lithium battery with solid electrolyte will replace the current lithium batteries.

 

[toppop52]

The causes of the lithium battery overheating problems are well known and can be avoided by proper design of the individual battery cell and the entire battery pack.

The small number of problems with lithium batteries in Tesla cars (less than 10) have resulted from damage to the battery itself by road debris and by collisions that damaged the battery itself. To date none of the Tesla car batteries have failed due to thermal runaway.

And within 3-5 years the much safer lithium battery with solid electrolyte will replace the current lithium batteries.

I understand, but that doesn’t change those on the road today. We need to admit they have a place in the world, and we need to admit their very obvious shortcomings.

 

[aczlan]

If you are at 80% rechargeable rate, shouldn’t there be a corresponding loss of driving distance?

There would be, but if you have relatively small hills it won't get pull the battery down enough to make a noticeable difference.

Aaron Z

 

[vvanders]

I understand, but that doesn稚 change those on the road today. We need to admit they have a place in the world, and we need to admit their very obvious shortcomings.

Doesn't change the fact that you can drop a match in someone's gas tank and achieve the same(if not more explosive) effect.

Like I said, point me to the data. Happy to admit it's a problem if there's evidence of it being worse than gas vehicles.

 

[Redneck in training]

Good stuff... but unless I am missing something, you are not accounting for the energy required to mine and produce heavy metals for batteries. This always seems to be the unmentioned variable. Not to mention how to deal with the waste/recycle issues. An ICE can be melted down and recycled easily. How about heavy metal batteries?

Are you a fan of nuclear energy? Why don't we have lots of miniature nuclear engines running around?

I assumed (for simplicity) that making ecar and ice car and mining and transportation of hydrocarbons to make fuel and energy have about the same environmental impact. Operation of ecar versus ice car has very diferent environmental impact. ecars are just about as recyclable as ice cars.
feel free to augment my numbers.

 

[Redneck in training]

If you are at 80% rechargeable rate, shouldn稚 there be a corresponding loss of driving distance?

Yes. That is correct statement.

 

[Egon]

To each his own, HD builds a very popular bike in many styles, it will idle all day without touching the throttle. I rode Japanese bikes for decades, if I bought a new one it would be a Harley. They羆*e just cool!

Yup, popular with the white haired crowd, idle all day and shake all day. A few years back there were some serious problems.

 

[houstonscott]

Yup, popular with the white haired crowd, idle all day and shake all day. A few years back there were some serious problems.

Yeah, Porsche designed a nice engine.

 

[toppop52]

Doesn't change the fact that you can drop a match in someone's gas tank and achieve the same(if not more explosive) effect.

Like I said, point me to the data. Happy to admit it's a problem if there's evidence of it being worse than gas vehicles.

I did post a link to the battery failure issues in accidents. And in what accident would one drop a match in the fuel tank? We are not in the age of exploding Pintos. And I didn’t say they were worse than gas vehicles, I can’t prove that so I won’t claim that, I try to keep my claims within proven reality. I am saying that battery units are not the safest things in a wreck, otherwise emergency personnel wouldn’t have special procedures for EVs. And why must it be worse than a gas vehicle to be a problem? Makes no sense.

 

[toppop52]

Yup, popular with the white haired crowd, idle all day and shake all day. A few years back there were some serious problems.

I am the white haired crowd, I rode Honda Magnas, Suzuki GSX 1100, and one Yamaha 1100, along with 7-8 smaller bikes, reliable, smooth and fast although all but the Magnas did vibrate my hands. Today, if I rode, which I haven’t in about 18 years, I’d just want big cool bike.

 

[two_bit_score]

Doesn't change the fact that you can drop a match in someone's gas tank and achieve the same(if not more explosive) effect.

Like I said, point me to the data. Happy to admit it's a problem if there's evidence of it being worse than gas vehicles.

Pretty immature thinking there vv. If you drop a match in someone's gas tank it will probably be as much your problem as theirs.


TBS