Thanks to George...

[Branch]

Hess
You have my admiration for sticking it out as a teacher. There is no way I could sit in a class and try to teach the smart mouthed, hideous looking, little spoiled brats. What I saw of the kids that attended our local high school was enough to turn my stomach, especially with their parents backing them up.
I remember getting in trouble at school for questionable behavior and then getting in twice as much trouble when I got home. What I understood from the teachers at my kids school was that the parents would come in and raise hell if their little Johnny was corrected for anything. How can you possibly teach in that kind of environment.
My parents, and my wifes parents, were taught in one room schools where everything was shared because there wasn't enough to go around. Money wasn't just tight, it was non-existent. They learned to read, write, and go on to make something of themselves. So I come to the conclusion that money isn't at the root of the trouble, it's the parents. If the parents instill a desire to learn and then back it up with support it seems like a bad teacher would only be a small percentage of the problem. The kids don't have just one teacher like the old one room schools where one teacher taught it all. They have multiple teachers through the years so it would lead me to believe that every teacher would have to be bad, and that just isn't realistic.
What am I missing here?

Branch

 

[Bird]

Branch, I think a lot of us grew up as you apparently did. I know we understood from the time we started school that if we got a whipping in school, we'd get another one when we got home, and my dad didn't believe in spanking kids; he believed in just beatin' the livin' stuffing out of 'em. So if we got in trouble at school, we sure as heck didn't say anything about it at home; just hoped the teacher didn't tell our parents.

And yes, there are bad teachers, just as there are good and bad in every profession. And some may get bad rapped when it isn't their fault. I'll never forget when our oldest daughter went into the 3rd grade, a couple of neighbors told my wife she should go to the school and ask that our daughter be put in a different class with a different teacher than the one she was assigned to. They said that old woman was just plain mean to the kids and too rough on them. So my wife was ready to do it, until I told her no, that we weren't going to do that because the kid was going to have to deal with all kinds of personalities later in life and she might just as well start learning that now. And you know she just got along fine with that teacher and never had a problem.

One thing that does concern me is the "social" promotions through school without the kids learning; maybe not the teachers' fault. But when I was in charge of our personnel division, we had job applicants with bachelors degrees who could not spell, could not write a complete sentence or paragraph, and frequently could not read at what I would consider junior high school level. And just as bad was the number of notes, announcements, etc. that our girls brought home from high school written by teachers, and the notes would be full of spelling and grammatical errors. That made me wonder about the quality of the teachers. And of course, not being much of a sports fan, the fact that the football coach was the highest paid "teacher" in the school really teed me off.

Ooops, time for me to get off my soapbox.

Bird

 

[jyoutz]

Yeah Bird, I didn't mean to sound personal with my response, but I am a federal employee and I know first hand that many of the folks who complain about the government the most, are the first to call their congressman when their favorite federal goody is threatened. Since I'm a forester, I will use this example: most everyone is in favor of national forestlands to be set aside for public use, but people squeal like crazy when federal agencies attempt to harvest timber or lease grazing on these lands. Everyone wants a freebe place to recreate but nobody wants to pay the taxes to permit proper management of these lands. Oh yeah, the federal agencies must also protect private lands from wildfire and people also expect this for nothing. I could go on and on. My years with the government have caused me to firmly believe that the majority of the people are very happy with the system of government we have and the way that money is spent (rather or not it makes any sense). Congress really does respond to it's constituents, and most constituents say gimme. I don't think that any class of people are exempt. When I worked for state forestry, I was often surprised that the most vocal local landowners who vote conservative were the ones always calling me to ask about new federal cost-sharing money for conservation reserve, forestry incentives program, ect... Then they would have a letter to the editor in next weeks paper, complaining about federal spending and taxes.

 

[jyoutz]

Cowboy Doc, I'm not saying that I don't agree with much of what you say here. I'm just saying that I think that we are greatly outnumbered by those who like things the way they are. Sadly, most Americans like a little bit of socialism. FDR's legacy (curse?) lives on. You've illustrated this point very well in your discussion about the Iowa flooding. I'm all for the flat tax, but of course the entrenched lawyers and charities (and many businesses) will never permit that to happen.

 

[hess]

Thanks Branch,
And, you're right things have gotten somewhat out of control. Much of what is wrong rests with the parents, and the way we finance our public school system. Neither of which is going to change anytime soon.
Parents are the greatest teachers to their children (good or bad), but there is no "test" in order to become one.
Second, schools should not be financed based on property values. This makes it next to impossible for poorer districts (inner city, rural areas) to afford the best teachers, who often choose to work in elite, suburban schools, where the pay is better.
Finally, I'd be a hypocrite not to acknowledge the rise in the number of poorly trained teachers coming into the profession over the past several years. And while unions have protected millions of Americans over the past century, they also shelter the incompetent. Our union is a strong one (for better and worse), and they represent everyone who pay their dues, equally.
Surprisingly, a lot of these "poor" teachers have come out of the private sector. For example, we have a medical doctor who now teaches science. Although he is certainly very knowledgeable man, he cannot control his classes, and he frequently stops by for advice.
I guess that its best to ask an electrician for electrical advice, a doctor for medical advice, and a trained teacher for advice on how to best educate young people.
And I know what you mean about your parents, my father was the same way with us. I learned a lot about respecting the authority of adults.

 

[hoghead]

I got a novel idea! How about charging every one a flat percentage of their income! No deductions ,just a flat tax..The more you make , the more you pay! But everybody pays the same pecentage...I guess something so simple would put all of the politicians out of work..

Hoghead

 

[Branch]

Bird,
It still seems to go back to personal responsibility and intestinal fortitude. If we strive for excellence some will attain it. Others will fail like they always have. Social advancement just sets the bar so low we guarantee a mediocre outcome.
Looking back at the things people have accomplished in this country just makes you wonder how we got here. The people who put a man on the moon, eliminated polio, dreamed up the integrated circuit, radio, television. Just about everything we take for granted today came from people who learned the 3R's under a very remedial system by todays standards. We have the history to look back on and determine how we accomplished so much. There have always been great teachers and horrible teachers, great students and horrible students. Like Hess said, it's not a bussiness where you make something and have control over the raw material. WE send our kids to school and WE are responsible for the outcome. If my child can't read, I too have failed. I should have been tutoring my kids at night to guarantee they could read. No amount of money poured into the schools is going to change the fact that parents are responsible for their childrens welfare.
You made the decision to keep your daughter in that classroom for all the right reasons. I couldn't agree with you more. Life has it's ups and downs and the only way you become a well rounded person is to experience it. Adversity builds strength.
Friends of mine escaped communist Romania 17 years ago. They came here barely able to understand our language and took very low paying jobs so they could put food on the table. What they tell me is that the worst of times here was nothing compared to where they came from. They can't understand how anyone fails in the United States. They truly see nothing but great opportunity for those that want to work and they despise the lazy communists in Romania. To them communism is a wealthy ruling class that keeps the average person in mediocre living conditions so that they can be controlled. Make them believe that their hardships are caused by their greedy neighbors. In the end only those that rule have money, the masses bicker among themselves for the scraps. They own a business now and have some Romanians working for them that still haven't shrugged the communist work ethics. They still want to be cared for the way the government did back in Romania.
Self reliance is power, dependence is deterioration.

Branch

 

[skent]

<font color=blue>Lastly as far as taxes go why not just have a flat tax? Throw out all the loopholes and
everything and just pay x amount of what you make.</font color=blue>
Hey Richard, I think your on to something. But what about a flat rate SALES tax. You pay taxes only on stuff you buy(both state and federal). If you want to save your money for the future, It's tax free. Most states have sales tax collection systems already in place, expand on that to get a federal sales tax and do away with the income tax. If you go to work for a company at 45,000 a year, you take home 45,000 a year.

Steve

 

[EdDekker]

<font color=blue>Hey Richard, I think your on to something. But what about a flat rate SALES tax. </font color=blue>

Steve,
Former Congressman Archer has been pushing a Sales (or Value Added) tax as a replacement for the income tax for years.

A key benefit is that savings and investment are encouraged. What you spend is taxed what you save is not, until you eventuly spend it.

The downside is the danger is that the income tax could come back and we would pay both.


Ed

 

[cowboydoc]

I'll agree with anything that is fair and simple like that. Same thing you know why do we have to have a 7% sales tax, 15% state tax, and about a 5% property tax? And the 5% property tax is the most unfair of all!!! How in the world is it fair that you pay tax on the money that bought the property and then even after it's paid off you still have to pay tax just to own it? I mean seriously what kind of a midieval, frutal, archaic deal is that? I just don't get that one. Don't give me the crap about if you own property then you are worth something. I know people everyday that have to sell their property or farms because they can't even afford the property tax on them. Then like in Bozeman, MT where my wife is from it becomes the hottest spot for Calif. to move into. Well they go there and have tons of money and drive up the property values. Then the guy that was born and raised there and makes a simple and modest living gets his property taxes jacked up so high that he can no longer afford them. A state income tax and a sales tax should be enough.