Thanks to George...

   / Thanks to George... #41  
Re: Thanks to George...Not

Cowboydoc, I was surprised that the Democrats added the $300 rebate also. I was watching Meet the Press the other day and they had both a Republican and a Democrat on. They all agreed that the Democrats added the rebate in. The Democrats were complaining that most the tax cuts take up to 10 years to be fully implemented and wanted something immediate to stimulate the economy (the $300). The Republicans did not object. There was another show on later in the day that mentioned the same thing. I can't believe that the Republicans sitting there on TV would agree to give the Democrats credit for the $300 if it were not true.

If you want a perfect example of tax on a tax you get one every time you buy a car if you live in a state with sales tax. If you look at a brakedown of the car purchace price you will see federal excise tax on the tires is included. Sales tax is charged on the purchase price, so you are paying sales tax on the federal tax.
Andy
 
   / Thanks to George... #42  
Richard, I couldn't agree more. If you think about it, you never really own your property since you have to pay on it(taxes) as long as it's in your name. Property taxes are never paid off. And if you don't pay, you lose your property. What a racket.

Ernie
 
   / Thanks to George... #43  
actually, my nome de guerre is based on my motorcycle ... but I appreciate the compliment nontheless ... and apologize for getting so wound up that, as usual, I didn't bother to proofread. The teachers that I had back in the bad old days actually did promote things like reading, writing and math ... instead of worrying about how my sense of self-worth was that day ... annd instilled in me a love of learning that continues to this day ... and will continue until I'm too senile to pick up a newspaper, book or magazine. They didn't couch, or discuss, or chat, or share ... they taught.
Of course, education was different back then ... most people got into it because they enjoyed passing on knowledge ... and most were actually qualified for the courses that they taught ... although I did have a German teacher who was French and knew less German than anyone in the class.
Hey, if you teach your students to spell ... more power to you, sir ... wish you would pass along some of that skill to your peers.
Someday I may divide my time between Canada and the US ... but for now I'll stay here and keep paying excessive taxes to support you and your fellow teachers.
And I do apologize for upsetting you ... I was responding to your assertion that I owed everyone that worked less hard a living ... and, I'm very sorry ... but that always upsets me. I believe Ayn Rand had it completely right ... even if she was a little dipsy about it ... and people with attitudes like the leaders (and maybe the followers) of the NEA are the real enemy within. They'll manage what no outside influences ever manage to do ... destroy this great country from within.
Teachers do test? Not from what I've read .... one of the main complaints I've seen around the country is that teachers are instructing in subjects they're not familiar with .... are not retested once they've got tenure ... although I understand the standards are quite different across the country .. especially in Texas, I hear, where they're not allowed to unionize (or so I was informed by someone claiming to be a teacher in Houston).
You do not manufacture a product? Well ... not physically, maybe ... but there is supposed to be an end product - educated children. Every account I've seen says that although students now spend more time (and years) in school than ever before ... the "essentials" are taught less and less - leaving students less prepared to fit in once they leave school. Read the excellent speech attributed to Bill Gates addressing high school students some time.
Are "you" solely to blame ... quite certainly not ... parents (and their attitudes), the school boards and the government/courts have a hand in the whole mess .... but, to rest my case ... I'll just point out that a heck of a hullabaloo is made over finding some "outstanding" teachers every year to fete. This would be an odd thing to do if the majority were outstanding ... so I must assume ...
I aplogize for waxing rhapsodic on the subject ... but it is quite a sore spot with me ... as I am "permitted" to pay for educating everyone ... but allowed no say in how the money is spent.
Thanks again for pointing out the proper spelling of Communist.


too bad that common sense ain't
 
   / Thanks to George... #44  
[[[Hey, if you teach your students to spell ... more power to you, sir ... wish you would pass along some of that skill to your peers./ ...
Thanks again for pointing out the proper spelling of Communist.]]]

Wingnut,

A lot of good comment here, on a serious and worthwhile topic. Maybe I'll get around to adding a few cents worth. But for now, I want to compliment you on your generous apology to Hess for your failure to proofread, and your appreciation of his spelling work.

I admit, I feel a little irreverent pointing it out, but I found Hess' last sentence humorous, given the topic. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

[[[I here Canada is beautiful.]]]

I often make typos myself, but I have to say that MY teacher spells "hear" differently /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif !!

But maybe today's students skip those boring single-syllable words and go right to the more complex "Communist" type!

/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Larry
 
   / Thanks to George... #45  
All,

While I will enjoy my $300 as much as the next, I personally would rather they spend my money on the national debt.

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 30 May 2001 at 05:23:09 AM PDT is:
5,642,677,210,741.66

The estimated population of the United States is 284,224,783
so each citizen's share of this debt is $19,852.87.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$120 million per day since September 30, 1998!
Concerned? Then tell Congress and the White House!


If they put the money all of us are supposed to get back into the debt, we would realize a HUGE tax check from the interest savings. While a registered Rep., I guess this thought is a bit to independent for either party. BTW, the total went up over 1,000,000 while I was composing this response!

Farmer kid usetabe, Farmer Wannabe
 
   / Thanks to George... #46  
Wingnut,
I appreciate the apology.
I too, got a little hot under the collar, regarding something I feel strongly about. My apologies as well.
You are right however, when you say that standards vary from state to state on teaching qualification. MOST teachers had to take the National Teacher Examination (its name has now changed) in order to gain certification - but not all states require this. And many states, including PA, now require additional continuing education credits every 4-6 years. As far as testing experienced teachers: if there is a test that can accurately measure one's teaching ability, I'm all for it. Otherwise, and I'll be the first to admit, the subject matter taught to children is not "rocket science." We do not need to be experts in our field - but as I mentioned in another post, regarding the physician who now teaches at our school -being an expert in the field may be the least important criterion.
But, it is the "expert" from the private sector, thinking anyone can teach, who is granted the emergency teaching certificate and requires no testing or education in the field.
Some of the best scientists I've ever met, were my college professors, but they couldn't teach to save their lives.
On the issue of teaching essentials, let me say that School Boards establish curriculum as well as the courses to be taught, in every school district in America. School boards are composed of normal citizens such as yourself. They essentially run a multi-million dollar company, voting on everything from the budget to personnel. There is a book titled the "The Shopping Mall High School" (sorry, I do not know how to underline yet), which talks about how we have created so many electives for students to choose from, that we fail to give them enough core-curriculum courses. But this, as I have said, is what you get when non-professionals, with personal agenda's are allowed to determine policy.
(You do not tell an electrician how to wire your house, or instruct your lawyer on how to present your case, or lecture your doctor on how to treat you...)
But on a lighter note, even if you can't spell (and thanks to JOR EL pointing it out, it seems neither can I), I appreciate your tax dollars (couldn't have bought my tractor without them), your taste in literature (Atlas Shrugged was a great book), and the opportunity to talk about such relevant topics (other than our tractors).
Thanks, hess.
 
   / Thanks to George... #47  
Hi Hess, /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I'm glad you took my "spelling" jab with a sense of humour /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif .

A thought or several:

I graduated from high school in 1958. My school, while not the "one room schoolhouse" of American legend, was far from the grand monument to the superintendent-of-schools that many today are.

The essentials were there, ..,. a capable, motivated teacher, a blackboard, some quality books, desks, and more-or-less attentive students with reasonably-involved parents. ( Incidentally there were nearly always 30-or-so students in a class, nothing unusual then, ..."big deal" overcrowding today -- when any excuse is better-than-none)

I have absolutely no doubt that my graduating class, taken as a whole, would seriously trounce nearly any of today's similar groups as to the level of their general knowledge of essential "stuff" ( 3-r's, etc.).

I acknowledge that "That was then, and this is now!" And, incidentally, I happen to really believe that our parents WERE America's "Finest Generation", which was undoubtedly a major factor. But as to the "fixing" of today's state of affairs, I am simply tired of hearing that "more money" is the answer.

If the kids are ill-fed, abused, undisciplined, untutored-at-home, etc.; if the teachers are unable to influence the parents to set a curriculum containing substance instead of "fluff'; i.e., if all the reasons given here-and-elsewhere, for today's poor results (generally, ...of course there are still outstanding exceptions!)are valid, then giving the Board of Education (read "educators" ) still-more money is not going to affect THESE things in a positive way.

I have responded many times, as a firefighter, to local (Salem, Oregon) schools for various medical/other emergencies. Walking through these Sky-high ceilinged, spacious, impressively-equipped edifices, usually with grand mottoes carved somewhere extolling the virtues inherent in the ideal of "Education", I was always disgusted to realize that the "output" of the whole EXPENSIVE (-enough!) system, was a largely UN-educated population-of-the-future.

It's bad enough that many of today's high-schoolers can't spell "kat" (figuratively speaking, of course). But for a look at the future of those "adults-to-be" ( which is here NOW - some of them have grown up as "products" of the deteriorating "system"), there is a phenomena which has become a pet-peeve of mine, which will serve as an example; Have you noticed how the redundant use of "is" (and similar words) has become part of the culture? The trouble with this is, is that it is simply BAD grammar!
You wouldn't say " My last-name is, is Hess."

My last two sentences would not cut-it in any decent English class of "yesteryear", ...but if you listen for it, you will hear numbers of news-anchors, politicians, weather-persons, etc. saying similar things all-the-time.

Now I know I did not list rocket-scientists here. But my point is that these are the very professions that, in the past, would have majored in grammar, language, communication-skills, etc, and would have been seriously embarrassed to be caught in such a gaffe.

It passes un-noticed today, because neither their peers nor their audience holds them to the standards that were-in-fact once "standard".

The "Dumbing of America" is more than a book title. It is an observable fact, ... a vicious-cycle where each generation, instead of improving on the last, cares less, tries less, and expects less (of itself AND of everyone else)!

Who to blame? Or to put it more socially-acceptably, where is the problem? Well, we have mentioned some of the areas that are very difficult to address, ...and those MUST include the "professional" educators.

I don't have all-the-answers, ... but if I called myself a teacher, an "educator", I certainly would expect myself (if worthy of the title) and my profession to turn-out some "educated" students.

I know you don't care for the "product" analogy, but I think it serves to represent the purpose and goal of the whole effort --- an educated citizenry.

I have taught a number of classes, ... happily, at an adult-level, and absolutely would not tolerate disruption or inattention. Private teaching offers the advantage of dismissal-in-the-interest-of-the-group, ...even if a refund of fees is involved, it is unquestionably worth-it.

My sympathies go out to all those who are faced with the task of imparting knowledge to students who don't care if they obtain any, and to those who must somehow deal with parents who are quick-to-complain about their under-achieving offspring, but will neither disipline them nor permit anyone else to.

I personally think quality private schools are the best bet for any parent who can swing it. Next would come home-schooling by able parents.
To keep kids in today's schools is to let them be taught-by-experience that there are few-if-any standards of behaviour or achievement, that authority really ISN'T, if you simply question-it, and that any consequences that theoretically SHOULD come your way can be deflected by a "protective" parent, ...ESPECIALLY one with a lawyer.

The constant cry for "more money" is sometimes even more onerous than usual. A recent t-v ad. in this area had a child complaining that some of the books in his school were "written before I was even born!!"

How tragic! What a disadvantage! As if this child of 8 years or so couldn't possibly find anything of value to his education in material produced SO LONG AGO.

So much for Galileo, DaVinci, Newton, etc., etc. A little touch of the oriental's reverence for the wisdom of the aged might be useful here.

The person who sponsored/wrote this ad. only caused me to clutch my wallet more tightly. And even if only the child who spoke the lines "bought" the idea that only the latest books were worth reading, then one mind, at least, has been hindered, instead of helped.

If you give money to a person (or system) who is accomplishing little with what they already have been given, upon what are you basing your expectations for improvement? The same rationale that justified the LAST plea? Then expect the same results as LAST time.

For me, "the profession" just isn't on solid ground when asking for increased budgeting to "not-do" the job.

Union "support" of unworthy teachers has been mentioned. Unions keeping "dead-wood" on the job are a problem in ANY organised profession. But that does not excuse the group-at-large from the obligation to provide the service for which they are being paid.

If houses were burning down right-and-left due to poor firefighting, "firefighters" as a whole would catch hell, and rightly-so. No one would escape censure by pointing at "the leadership", or "deadwood". And "budget restrictions on manpower and equipment" would ring a little hollow, too, UNLESS it could be DEMONSTRATED that the money to fatten the budget COULD BE/HAS BEEN used to provide IMPROVED SERVICE.

The school-system's record of efficient/productive-use of the many already-given budget increases, when evaluated in terms of competent graduates, is such that I am completely disinterested in hearing their requests for still more.

I am in favor of "testing" teachers. While I admit that setting up representative tests is not "easy", who better to do it than the hopefully bright "educators" who expect to teach our kids? As to pay, I think that a good teacher should make at least as much(yearly) as the construction trades. That is a hasty off-the-top-of-my-head figure( so I won't be surprised if it is contested), considering the summer vacation vs. the extra education requirements, and the lessened physical demands/risks (until recently) of the classroom environment. (Still have to think more construction workers are killed/injured on the job, than teachers.) Also considering that the output of most workers can be "measured".

"But SHOULDN'T people who invest in more education be rewarded by not having to work as hard physically?" Maybe, ... but what they are being paid TO ACCOMPLISH has to be element of the what-to-pay equation. Doing a great job educating our kids( as a whole)? ...worth A LOT! Doing a half-donkey job(again, overall)? ...not worth so much! Sad-but-true, when it comes to parting people from their money, "But I tried REALLY HARD!" isn't what they want to hear. "I did the job you paid to have done!" is more like it! Pudding, y'know?

Other trades are tested every day, ...if the roof looks good, stays on, and doesn't leak, ...the roofer did a good job. I don't ask if he fought with his wife, had difficulty getting materials, had truck-problems, has one old employee who is "slowing down", or didn't feel good when he did the job.
I am paying for a lasting, weather-tight, attractive house covering. There it is! Here's the money.

We are paying "teachers" to educate our kids. It is their (speaking of the whole "system", not you specifically, Hess) "business". I say, "Tend to it, ...and get the job done".

If there are special difficulties associated with the effort, with which we must help you(and I certainly think there ARE!), grab our sleeves and tug until we listen. But don't expect us (ME, at least) to believe you if what you say is MONEY (again!).

And if we DON'T listen, and the job is impossible without the help we fail to give you, then we will all share the inevitable downhill-slide that we, as a culture, will deserve.

A last "pet peeve" type remark; In my opinion, one of the most harmful "trends" in today's schools is the downplaying of accomplishment,..."That's o.k. Dear, it doesn't matter if everyone else is more ......(fill in with courteous, respectful, industrious, honest, attentive, punctual, neat, clean, etc., etc.), you're just as "good" as they are.

Pure B.S.!! "Teaching" a kid this is no favor! Today we teach them that such things don't-matter, ...yesterday we taught them WHY THEY DO!

There's a BIG difference!

Larry
 
   / Thanks to George... #48  
wow! that's gotta be the longest post ever!

two things to remember:
1. If you believe the government needs more money you can sign over your $300/$600 check.
2. Don't think the democrats are "looking after the disadvantaged", its much more political than that. They stand behind that concept because it furthers their agenda to expand the base of people that receive federal benefits, which in turn expands the number of people that will vote for members of their party. Its a dangerous trend for our future.

I doubt this strategy appears in any DNC policy handbook, but the debate over this tax bill forced the Dems to reveal some components of their agenda in this area that I have not seen in the past.
 
   / Thanks to George... #49  
WOW!!!

You know Larry, I believe that my fellow classmates, and my teachers, would trounce the students/teachers of today as well.

However, there are two phenomena of which I'd like to point out.

When asked:

1) Most Americans believe that their generation received a better education than the students of today (regardless of their age).

2) Most Americans give our educational system a rating of "poor," but consider the school district in which they live to be "very good."

In addition, students today are exposed to a wealth of knowledge and technology that far exceeds what students of our two generations combined (remember Atari's Pong?).

Although I cannot explain why American adults feel this way - I'm sure it has something to do with the "Well, in my day..." syndrome.

Who was better, Russell or Shaq? Jim Brown or Barry Sanders?

hess
 
   / Thanks to George... #50  
Reading your response reminded me of this bit of information Emailed to me by a friend.

"Each year the staff at Beloit College in Wisconsin puts
together a list to try to give the Faculty a sense of the mindset of this
year's incoming freshman. Here is this year's list:

The people who are starting college this fall across the
nation were born in 1982.
They have no meaningful recollection of the Reagan Era and
probably did not know he had ever been shot.
They were prepubescent when the Persian Gulf War was waged. Black Monday,1987 is as significant to them as the Great Depression.
There has been only one Pope.
They were 11 when the Soviet Union broke apart and do not remember the Cold War.
They have never feared a nuclear war.
They are too young to remember the space shuttle blowing up.
Tianamen Square means nothing to them.
Bottle caps have always been screw off and plastic.
Atari predates them, as do vinyl albums.
The expression "You sound like a broken record" means nothing to them. They have never owned a record player.
They have likely never played Pac Man and have never heard of Pong.
Compact Discs was introduced when they were 1 year old.
As far as they know, stamps have always cost about 33 cents.
They have always had an answering machine.
Most have never seen a TV set with only 13 channels, nor have they seen a black and white TV.
They have always had cable.
There have always been VCRs, but they have no idea what BETA was.
They cannot fathom not having a remote control.
They don't know what a cloth baby diaper is.
They were born the year that Walkmen were introduced by Sony.
Roller skating has always meant inline for them.
Popcorn has always been cooked in the microwave.
They never took a swim and thought about Jaws.
The Vietnam War is as ancient history to them as W.W.I, W.W.II and the Civil War. They have no idea that Americans were ever held hostage in Iran.
They can't imagine what hard contact lenses are.
The Titanic was found? They thought we always knew.
Michael Jackson has always been white.
There has always been MTV.
They don't have a clue how to use a typewriter."

Out with the old, in with the new. Each generation gets to skip a little and add a little.
A century ago learning the 3R's could not have been any different. In fact I'll bet you could still teach them quite effectively with the same books. We're just more hung up on technology today and feel that somehow it will free us from effort. If anything using all the electronic whiz bang stuff to learn with is stupid. It doesn't symplify things, it tends to complicate them. Using a calculator to learn math is the most ridiculous idea ever dreamed up by an educator. You end up teaching two things instead of one, and neither one is fully mastered.

Branch
 

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