The 1964 MF-135 diesel is overheating

[flusher]

While 4020 parts are as common as bugs on a bumper, 3020 parts are a bit harder to find and a bit more expensive because of their low numbers. A good friend bought a 3020 powershift w/ side console a couple years back. It had the common 3020 problem of a failed counterbalancer shaft. He tried finding a complete engine and gave up after a while. A Deere dealer near here put him on to a 4 cylinder Deere "industrial" engine that was a bolt-in replacement. It was a replacement for a back-hoe. The new engine is turbo-ed and 100 hp. Makes for one mean 3020.

FWJ: thanks for the 3020 info. I learn a little more each time I mention that I'm looking for a 3020. Does fixing the problem you mentioned involve splitting the tractor? I've sorta fixated on the 3020 because it met my requirements (be a JD, 70 hp pto, $5000 range). My backup is the JD 4010, 80hp pto and a few years more vintage.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

FWJ: thanks for the 3020 info. I learn a little more each time I mention that I'm looking for a 3020. Does fixing the problem you mentioned involve splitting the tractor? I've sorta fixated on the 3020 because it met my requirements (be a JD, 70 hp pto, $5000 range). My backup is the JD 4010, 80hp pto and a few years more vintage.

That coutershaft runs parallel with the crankshaft, and sets opposite of the camshaft if my memory is correct. I've seen 'em pulled during an "in frame overhaul". From what I've read, the 3020 used an engine design that was essentially 2/3rds of the "400 series" in the 4020. The 4 cylinder version had vibration issues at first that were dealt with by adding an internal balancer shaft. I don't have much personal experience, other than knowing a few 3020 owners who've done overhauls.

A good, newer alternative would be a 2640 or 2750/2755. They're 70 and 75 hp. First part of production on the 2640 was Dubuque Iowa, then this line shifted to Mannheim Germany. Very good tractors with a number of good transmission options. You will pay a bit more than $5000 though. 3020's have that classic "20 series" look too.

 

[Soundguy]

I heard that!

soundguy

Not a lot of profit in hoarding old tractors.

 

[flusher]

That coutershaft runs parallel with the crankshaft, and sets opposite of the camshaft if my memory is correct. I've seen 'em pulled during an "in frame overhaul". From what I've read, the 3020 used an engine design that was essentially 2/3rds of the "400 series" in the 4020. The 4 cylinder version had vibration issues at first that were dealt with by adding an internal balancer shaft. I don't have much personal experience, other than knowing a few 3020 owners who've done overhauls.

A good, newer alternative would be a 2640 or 2750/2755. They're 70 and 75 hp. First part of production on the 2640 was Dubuque Iowa, then this line shifted to Mannheim Germany. Very good tractors with a number of good transmission options. You will pay a bit more than $5000 though. 3020's have that classic "20 series" look too.

My 84-year old neighbor has a JD 2640 with an FEL (6-ft wide bucket). Nice old, beat up tractor that runs everytime he needs it. He's offered to loan it to me for the cost of diesel when I need all that horsepower. I appreciate his offer, but my feeling is that it's like borrowing someone's toothbrush. Tractors are too personal. And I have a pride of ownership thing that nags at me.

 

[Soundguy]

I always figure If i borrow it.. I need to be prepaired to fix it.. if I'm prepaired to do that.. I might as well own the thing..

Another thing I once posted here, as a 'theoretical' response to someone wanting to borrow my tractor...

" Can I borrow your wife? "

I'm glad to loan -myself & my tractor- out as a unit if a friend needs me.. however.. the tractor never goes out alone..

Soundguy

 

[flusher]

My sentiments exactly. I've yet to see a manual non synch tranny 'fall' into gear.

I've seen em started in gear various ways.. and I've seent hem pushed into gear by reaching over, or climbing off. Ditto again on the H/L shifter... odds of both 'falling' or getting knocked into gear at the same time are of fthe charts.

I agree on the hot engine issue. He's running out of 'reasons' for why it would / could be overheating, and is now into the 'grasping for straws' area ..

I'm eager to find out what the final verdict is..

Soundguy

I may be making some progress.

Decided to check the temp gauges. Used the pot of hot water on the stove method. My reference sensor was my meat probe with digital readout (a Williams-Sonoma gift from one of the kids). It's the kind that has the sheathed probe you insert into the meat. A metal shielded cable connects the probe to the readout.

Checked the first temp gauge that I installed as a replacement for the one I got with the tractor, which was completely shot. It has a Cold-Normal-Hot scale and is an el cheapo unit I bought from yesterday's tractors, IIRC.
As the water heated up the gauge stayed pegged on cold. At 127F the pointer jumped upscale to the part of the scale where cold and normal ranges meet. At 186F the pointer reached the start of the hot range and at 207F the pointer reached the end of the hot range. So this gauge probably has a real cheap movement with a lot of friction to overcome before the pointer starts moving upscale. Previously I thought that the pointer jump was connnected with the thermostat opening. But I've checked that the thermostat starts to open in the 180-190F range, so that pointer jump at 127F has nothing to do with the thermostat.

I repeated the test with the other new temp gauge, the one with the numeric scale that reads from 130F to 280F. It's a cheap gauge from NAPA. The pointer stayed pegged at 130F until the water temp reached 149F at which time the pointer jumped upscale to read 152F. Here are the (temp gauge, ref gauge) readings up to the boiling point:

(170F, 169F)
(180F, 182F)
(190F, 190F)
(200F, 199F)
(210F, 207F)
(215F, 212F)

Not bad agreement considering that the temp gauge is a cheapie.

So I installed the temp gauge with the numeric readout, installed the new 180F thermostat, installed a new engine block draincock. Filled the radiator/block with about 9 quarts of coolant (system capacity is 10.5 quarts).
Started the engine, ran for 10 minutes. Temp gauge stayed at 130F. Topped off the radiator with another pint or so of coolant. Ran the engine for about 15 min. Temp gauge still reading 130F. Top radiator hose cold. Bottom radiator hose warm. Bypass hose and hose from block to pump inlet are both pretty hot. The block is hot to the touch, but not painfully hot.

I know there's coolant in the block because I've drained the block several times and got a real gusher out of the draincock. Also get good flow out of the temp sensor hole when I remove the sensor.

Need to run the engine longer and see what happens. Work for tomorrow. The barbeque is just about ready for the steaks now. Bone apetite.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I may be making some progress.

Decided to check the temp gauges. Used the pot of hot water on the stove method. My reference sensor was my meat probe with digital readout (a Williams-Sonoma gift from one of the kids). It's the kind that has the sheathed probe you insert into the meat. A metal shielded cable connects the probe to the readout.

Checked the first temp gauge that I installed as a replacement for the one I got with the tractor, which was completely shot. It has a Cold-Normal-Hot scale and is an el cheapo unit I bought from yesterday's tractors, IIRC.
As the water heated up the gauge stayed pegged on cold. At 127F the pointer jumped upscale to the part of the scale where cold and normal ranges meet. At 186F the pointer reached the start of the hot range and at 207F the pointer reached the end of the hot range. So this gauge probably has a real cheap movement with a lot of friction to overcome before the pointer starts moving upscale. Previously I thought that the pointer jump was connnected with the thermostat opening. But I've checked that the thermostat starts to open in the 180-190F range, so that pointer jump at 127F has nothing to do with the thermostat.

I repeated the test with the other new temp gauge, the one with the numeric scale that reads from 130F to 280F. It's a cheap gauge from NAPA. The pointer stayed pegged at 130F until the water temp reached 149F at which time the pointer jumped upscale to read 152F. Here are the (temp gauge, ref gauge) readings up to the boiling point:

(170F, 169F)
(180F, 182F)
(190F, 190F)
(200F, 199F)
(210F, 207F)
(215F, 212F)

Not bad agreement considering that the temp gauge is a cheapie.

So I installed the temp gauge with the numeric readout, installed the new 180F thermostat, installed a new engine block draincock. Filled the radiator/block with about 9 quarts of coolant (system capacity is 10.5 quarts).
Started the engine, ran for 10 minutes. Temp gauge stayed at 130F. Topped off the radiator with another pint or so of coolant. Ran the engine for about 15 min. Temp gauge still reading 130F. Top radiator hose cold. Bottom radiator hose warm. Bypass hose and hose from block to pump inlet are both pretty hot. The block is hot to the touch, but not painfully hot.

I know there's coolant in the block because I've drained the block several times and got a real gusher out of the draincock. Also get good flow out of the temp sensor hole when I remove the sensor.

Need to run the engine longer and see what happens. Work for tomorrow. The barbeque is just about ready for the steaks now. Bone apetite.

I can fire up the 150, let it sit "static" and run for 1/2 hour before seeing temp guage get anywhere near operating temp.

Just for one more straw to grasp at, have you checked/changed radiator cap? I believe oem was 7/9psi rated. Mine would "puke" a little coolant from the overflow under normal conditions with the old original cap. I installed a new 12psi cap a few years back. That stopped the overflow and made the temp run a few degrees lower (judging by the guage)

An old high school buddy runs a radiator repair shop near here. He told me any leaks, even a cap venting prematurely, would make a cooling system perform below spec.

 

[flusher]

I can fire up the 150, let it sit "static" and run for 1/2 hour before seeing temp guage get anywhere near operating temp.

Just for one more straw to grasp at, have you checked/changed radiator cap? I believe oem was 7/9psi rated. Mine would "puke" a little coolant from the overflow under normal conditions with the old original cap. I installed a new 12psi cap a few years back. That stopped the overflow and made the temp run a few degrees lower (judging by the guage)

An old high school buddy runs a radiator repair shop near here. He told me any leaks, even a cap venting prematurely, would make a cooling system perform below spec.

The radiator cap seems OK (it's 7 psi,IIRC), but I haven't pressure-tested it. I'll replace it if the 135 overheats tomorrow when I run it longer. I'll set the throttle at 1000 rpm and let it run until it overheats (or not).

 

[flusher]

I can fire up the 150, let it sit "static" and run for 1/2 hour before seeing temp guage get anywhere near operating temp.

.

That's good to know. Thanks for the info. That gives me a time-temp benchmark and helps a lot. I get antsy with the 135 engine running and nothing happening on the temp gauge. Worry about frying that engine.

Appears that Perkins diesels are similar in that respect to the diesel in my Kubota B7510HST. Normally when doing chores like toting stuff in the FEL bucket, the temp gauge on the Bota barely moves upscale. However, I know the gauge is good because I once heated up the Bota engine good while mowing weeds with the radiator screen nearly fully blocked. That lesson taught me to check that screen every hour while mowing. Don't want to cook that engine.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

That's good to know. Thanks for the info. That gives me a time-temp benchmark and helps a lot. I get antsy with the 135 engine running and nothing happening on the temp gauge. Worry about frying that engine.

Appears that Perkins diesels are similar in that respect to the diesel in my Kubota B7510HST. Normally when doing chores like toting stuff in the FEL bucket, the temp gauge on the Bota barely moves upscale. However, I know the gauge is good because I once heated up the Bota engine good while mowing weeds with the radiator screen nearly fully blocked. That lesson taught me to check that screen every hour while mowing. Don't want to cook that engine.

Diesels make real good power when they're operated at or near maximum temp. They quit making ANY power if operated well above max for very long.

It reached 101 degrees here yesterday. (calling for 102 today and tomorrow) I fired up the Massey yesterday to haul the trash cans out to the roadside. It didn't take quite as long as usual to reach operating temp It didn't take very long at all for me to reach maximum temp on MY temp gauge. Man is it HOT. (101 w/ 76% relative humidity.) Woke up to 84degrees @ 4:30AM.

Did I mention air conditioned cabs are wonderful?