The joys of bidding work

[MossRoad]

Maybe he has that big lot, house, car, etc... because he negitiates $50.00 deals the same way he negotiates $500,000.00 deals. You save money by not giving it to other people.

 

[AlanB]

We tend not to deal on our price's, once you start "negotiating" your prices, then it is likely to come up at any time.

As you did, we also make it real clear that we are giving them the "before it is on the trailer price" Price changes once it is loaded.

For us, it has just worked out better to not haggle on that stuff, because later on in the job something will get added etc. and those folks that wanted to beat you down at the front, will expect to beat you down in the middle and at the end as well.

We do add a "hassle factor" to some jobs, I have a large company I do some welding for, and they pay SLOW.... always pay, whatever I ask, but my money will be tied up for a month or two while it works through their system.

I just add the "interest" into the bid price, it is just not worth fooling with other systems imo.

Good luck, put that one out of your mind, try not to work hard (for others) on Sunday's, while you have to make hay while the sun is shining, you also have to give your body and mind a break from it occasionally. (look who is talking )

Hope it works for you, FWIW, those runs of bad luck like you are having occasionally come along in small business. Me and my buddy that cut trees laugh about it when the time is right, and work together when it is going wrong to try and recover.

Every now and then we have both had it to where all the equipment goes wrong all at once. It can be demoralizing, then you run into the customers like you had and it all goes to poo...

Good luck, it can be rewarding, but frustrating as well.

 

[Kendall69]

...but he still needs his grass/weeds cut.

And you still need the $400.00. And what you let go was a lot more than $400.00. That's $400.00 PER CUT, per (x) times a year - great that you can afford to let that amount of money go away.

With that $400.00 I could have bought my wife a GREAT anniversary gift, or taken her to the best place in town for dinner, purchased dozens of flowers, champagne, to me $400.00 is still worth $400.00, and I could still do a lot with $400.00.

..ONE individual customer ISN'T paying for my tractor

Well yes, $400.00 equates on a lot of tractors to a months payment, and yes 100 $400.00 customers DOES pay for your $40,000.00 tractor, the next 100 $400.00 feeds you for a year, and the next 2000 $400.00 customers buys your house. No not ONE individual customer, but many individual customers pays for your tractor, but my point wasn't JUST ONE, my point was if people keep turning down customers - CUSTOMERS PAYS THE BILLS, and that point can never be argued.

We all sit around crying about diesel prices when it goes up a nickel, but more than enough of you are quick to throw away $400.00 because of a plethora of phantom reasons - this guy would probably, this guy may, I've met a lot of guys who...

Bottom line the guy offered to part with $400.00 and LC walked away, that's his purgative.

It's obvious LC didn't want to do the job anyway, "worked all day" " it was Sunday" , anniversary etc. Secondly if anyone ever gives me the line

said, ok, but the instant I load that tractor it goes to $500, your choice, here's my card, you decide.

This tells me all I want to know about the contractor's attitude, and I would have spun on my heels like he did and find another contractor.
Everyone's been beating up the customer, but LC's attitude towards the customer was abysmal, it obviously reflected working all day, Sunday etc.
I could go on and on about contractors that have given me the same type of attitude.

You should have said " I normally get "X" amount for this but since you are a neighbor and I have to come here so many times a month, I will GIVE YOU THE SAME DISCOUNT as your neighbor. ( this squelches the argument of " gee if you discount customer B then customer A gets pissed off) There are many, many ways this could have been handled better - that's what I'm talking about!

You could have said, " Listen It's Sunday, I've worked all day, I'm tired, and I have an anniversary, lets talk next week or next time I'm out here and I'll give you a great price. But to tell a customer "buy now or when I load up your price goes up 25%".

This approach doesn't work for car salesman or Time share salesman, or carnival barkers - it won't work for contractors - leave that line out of your repertoire, it's demeaning, to you and the customer.

I know I and " the consensus" here are not going to agree on this, but to me a customer is a customer, and throwing phantom scenarios about this guy,
don't fly with me, none of this was proven. If you all want to justify walking away from a deal by turning a potential customer into an ugly ( insert your insult here), go ahead, but I ain't buyin it.

My take is this guy was a hard working schmuck like all of us, wanted to save a buck, and would have made a great on going customer with plenty of referrals. You on the other hand can make him out to be the devil incarnate, just a difference of opinion.

It's great that you all can walk away from customers, spew your prices and have a take it or leave it attitude, along with I'm sure I'm a professional and no one can do it like I can do it, yadda yadda yadda. Even better that you all have perfect customers, that pay non negotiated prices, pay on time every time, and are busting your door down...... I'm speaking of the "real world" not the world a lot of you are living in.

LC I'm not slamming you here, I like you, just like everyone else here, but I'm just giving you a different take on how you could have walked away from this with your full asking price of $450.00.

I'm sorry, but you handled this all wrong, and I think you know it. Don't think I haven't done the same thing, I have and the advice I'm giving here is 40 years of dealing with customers, good and bad. Some of my worst have ended up being my best, some of my best have ended up my worst.

 

[LoneCowboy]

Look, i see your point
But i'm not dealing with some guy in a 5,000,000 dollar house for a one time thing. (out here, you maybe get two cuts in a season on a dryland pasture (last couple years, only 1 time)).

Yes, i was there, I had already discounted it from $500 to $450, and really I'm not going down anymore. (old guy, on a pension, offering me a cold drink, sure, I would have done it, but this guy, with his attitude, no, not doing it). This guy was playing games. Had I started at like $750, he would have wanted like the same $50. It wasn't the money to him, it was the "win"

Well, I just gave him my price and had no where to go.

Not every customer is worth having. I've learned that lesson over a long time. Even my wife was mad about it (she was there cutting too)

 

[Farmwithjunk]

And you still need the $400.00. And what you let go was a lot more than $400.00. That's $400.00 PER CUT, per (x) times a year - great that you can afford to let that amount of money go away.

With that $400.00 I could have bought my wife a GREAT anniversary gift, or taken her to the best place in town for dinner, purchased dozens of flowers, champagne, to me $400.00 is still worth $400.00, and I could still do a lot with $400.00.



Well yes, $400.00 equates on a lot of tractors to a months payment, and yes 100 $400.00 customers DOES pay for your $40,000.00 tractor, the next 100 $400.00 feeds you for a year, and the next 2000 $400.00 customers buys your house. No not ONE individual customer, but many individual customers pays for your tractor, but my point wasn't JUST ONE, my point was if people keep turning down customers - CUSTOMERS PAYS THE BILLS, and that point can never be argued.

We all sit around crying about diesel prices when it goes up a nickel, but more than enough of you are quick to throw away $400.00 because of a plethora of phantom reasons - this guy would probably, this guy may, I've met a lot of guys who...

Bottom line the guy offered to part with $400.00 and LC walked away, that's his purgative.

It's obvious LC didn't want to do the job anyway, "worked all day" " it was Sunday" , anniversary etc. Secondly if anyone ever gives me the line



This tells me all I want to know about the contractor's attitude, and I would have spun on my heels like he did and find another contractor.
Everyone's been beating up the customer, but LC's attitude towards the customer was abysmal, it obviously reflected working all day, Sunday etc.
I could go on and on about contractors that have given me the same type of attitude.

You should have said " I normally get "X" amount for this but since you are a neighbor and I have to come here so many times a month, I will GIVE YOU THE SAME DISCOUNT as your neighbor. ( this squelches the argument of " gee if you discount customer B then customer A gets pissed off) There are many, many ways this could have been handled better - that's what I'm talking about!

You could have said, " Listen It's Sunday, I've worked all day, I'm tired, and I have an anniversary, lets talk next week or next time I'm out here and I'll give you a great price. But to tell a customer "buy now or when I load up your price goes up 25%".

This approach doesn't work for car salesman or Time share salesman, or carnival barkers - it won't work for contractors - leave that line out of your repertoire, it's demeaning, to you and the customer.

I know I and " the consensus" here are not going to agree on this, but to me a customer is a customer, and throwing phantom scenarios about this guy,
don't fly with me, none of this was proven. If you all want to justify walking away from a deal by turning a potential customer into an ugly ( insert your insult here), go ahead, but I ain't buyin it.

My take is this guy was a hard working schmuck like all of us, wanted to save a buck, and would have made a great on going customer with plenty of referrals. You on the other hand can make him out to be the devil incarnate, just a difference of opinion.

It's great that you all can walk away from customers, spew your prices and have a take it or leave it attitude, along with I'm sure I'm a professional and no one can do it like I can do it, yadda yadda yadda. Even better that you all have perfect customers, that pay non negotiated prices, pay on time every time, and are busting your door down...... I'm speaking of the "real world" not the world a lot of you are living in.

LC I'm not slamming you here, I like you, just like everyone else here, but I'm just giving you a different take on how you could have walked away from this with your full asking price of $450.00.

I'm sorry, but you handled this all wrong, and I think you know it. Don't think I haven't done the same thing, I have and the advice I'm giving here is 40 years of dealing with customers, good and bad. Some of my worst have ended up being my best, some of my best have ended up my worst.

And the point is, this guy WASN'T $400 X 100. He was ONE person, with ONE $400. It's a judgement call made by the person on the spot if that price is fair enough or worth walking away. $400 is a good chunk of change. Hard to say no to, but I don't let my customers dictate my rates. Neither would any prudent businessman.

In the area where I live, price mowing 10 acres @ $400 and you'll get laughed out of town. $400 would get you closer to 18 or 20 acres here. With closer margins, I don't see knocking 20% off the top for ANY customer, regular or 1-timer. That is reflected im my strong position on holding firm with pricing.

Also, I'm inclined to agree with one point you made, at least in an off-handed way. I don't "qualify" my reasons for holding firm with prices. I don't give my top 10 reasons for not discounting. I just give a firm, "No, that's my price" and let it go at that. In most cases, I end up getting what I ask.

Bush hogging isn't rocket science. Anyone with a tractor, a mower, and the time can do the job, but.. I'm not much different than a host of others who carry "enough" insurance, pay taxes on my income, pay my help, and run decent equipment. I'm entitled to make what I see as fair. I'm under no obligation to cheapen my prices for one individual. If all goes well, I make good money. But let's speculate on what COULD go wrong. Lets say "LC" flattened a tire while he was doing this "discounted" job. Would his customer be willing to pony up for his share of the tire repair? Doubtful. There's a number of ways to look at this situation. And only one of us in this discussion was there to make the call.

I own a mowing business that is thriving. I'm also a full-time employee of a large general contractor. I estimate jobs for them, sometimes reaching in to 10's of millions of dollars. It is closely akin to suicide to reduce rates to reel in a new customer. Everyone pays the same FAIR price. If you can afford to throw out 20% discounts, good chance your price structure is too high to begin with.

 

[KentT]

You ALWAYS have to deal, and make it up in the long run.

I have to ask "Why?"

When I buy a jug of milk, I don't get to "deal." When I buy fuel or parts for my tractors, I don't get to "deal."

Why is "having to deal" an expectation?

IMO, it is those who enjoy "Wheeling & Dealing" that seem to convey the perception that everything in life is negotiable. Some things simply are not...

I ABSOLUTELY HATE wheeling and dealing. Tell me your price, and I'll decide if I want what you have at that price. When I name a price, it's my price...

I've seen people haggle at yard sales, flea markets, etc. over a darn nickel...

IMO, they're wasting my time for their entertainment, and I feel USED...

 

[Kendall69]

And the point is, this guy WASN'T $400 X 100. He was ONE person

Oh so now your clairvoiyant. How do you know what he was going to spend in the future, or how many times he was going to cut - or for that matter if this guy was so "rich" , why can't I be clairvoiyant and say he had one million acres and wanted it all cut on a weekly basis.

Neither would any prudent businessman.

I'm a prudent business man and negotiate hourly. If I throw out a going rate and the customer says if I buy from you can you do it for (X) amount any prudent business man would be a fool to turn down money when it is offered to you.

And again this argument " if you lower your price this or that will happen is rubbish.

My prices are like a commodity for the exact same services and product - if I can make a buck the next words out of my mouth are SOLD. Some times I get MORE than the "going rate" some times less, but the key to my business for that last 25 years is I ALWAYS get the money. After all that's why I'm in business.

I could give a crap about a customers attitude, I'm not dating them or they will not be my best friend, they only want my service/product at a great pice, and all I want is their money PERIOD.

The more often these two things take place, the more money I end up with in my pocket.

I think there are MILLIONS of "prudent businessman" who agree with me rather than you. Ever heard of the phrase on millions of businesses - PRICE GUARANTEE, or WE WILL MEET OR BEAT, or NO ONE BEATS MY PRICE, or BRING IN ANY COMPETITORS PRICE AND WE WILL MEET OR BEAT IT, and on and on. Sure you have look at your local paper, it's their under some prudent businesses like hmmm lemme see, Oh I know WALMART, HOME DEPOT, K MART, LOWES, SEARS, BIG O TIRES, actually most prudent businessmen agree with me over you.

I just give a firm, "No, that's my price" and let it go at that. In most cases, I end up getting what I ask.

Great, but my point is you are leaving money on the table, you just admitted that, " in most cases" in my dealings I negotiate and get a deal in "ALL" cases. I never leave money on the table. If you worked for me and didn't negotiate till you laned a piece of business you would be fired for not working hard enough for the business. The people that work for me better work for the sale not just be an order taker. An order taker is someone who spits out a price and writes an order, not in my comapany, If you don't bring in a sale you better have a GREAT reason why not, and a " I gave him the price and he didn't buy" would end that person in the unemployment line.

Lets say "LC" flattened a tire while he was doing this "discounted" job. Would his customer be willing to pony up for his share of the tire repair? Doubtful.

Cmon - this what if rubbish has to end soon. OK iI'll still play. What if LC was cutting and bill Gates walked up and said I'll give you a million dollars to let me ride on your tractor - could happen. How about this one, LC is cutting the guys property, and tells LC , you know I'm tired of this property wanna buy it from me for a $1.00.

Lets see if this makes my point. This week a guy put a bid on rebuilding a bridge in California, most bids came in at 6.5 Mil, and 6 months this good ole boy, bid 1 million and said he would do it in 50 DAYS - he got the contract.
He finished in 15 days NOT 6 MONTHS, he got the 1.5 mil, plus a 250k bonus for every day he would finish early, or another 5 Mil. He got nearly as much as the highest bid. Side note, the man never finished high school.

Point is the " NORMAL GOING RATE" was 6 Mil, he "DISCOUNTED" ( not prudent)
to 1 mil, but ended up with 6mil. You see you never know what will transpire in any deal by walking away from deals.

Not buying the attitude thing either, the entire dealing with the " obnoxious dolt" would have been 3 minutes tops. It would go like this "YES", "PAY ME NOW" "THANK YOU" GOOD BYE" seriously how bad can it be to not to put up with for 3 minutes.

Bottom line LC " negotiated " for $50.00 more, but obdurately left $400.00 in the mans pocket. Yep his decision, his business, but in my book, bad business, and it looks like LC wife would agree with me, even if no one here will.

$400.00 in my pocket is ALWAYS better than $400.00 in a customers pocket.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Oh so now your clairvoiyant. How do you know what he was going to spend in the future, or how many times he was going to cut - or for that matter if this guy was so "rich" , why can't I be clairvoiyant and say he had one million acres and wanted it all cut on a weekly basis.


I'm a prudent business man and negotiate hourly. If I throw out a going rate and the customer says if I buy from you can you do it for (X) amount any prudent business man would be a fool to turn down money when it is offered to you.

And again this argument " if you lower your price this or that will happen is rubbish.

My prices are like a commodity for the exact same services and product - if I can make a buck the next words out of my mouth are SOLD. Some times I get MORE than the "going rate" some times less, but the key to my business for that last 25 years is I ALWAYS get the money. After all that's why I'm in business.

I could give a crap about a customers attitude, I'm not dating them or they will not be my best friend, they only want my service/product at a great pice, and all I want is their money PERIOD.

The more often these two things take place, the more money I end up with in my pocket.

I think there are MILLIONS of "prudent businessman" who agree with me rather than you. Ever heard of the phrase on millions of businesses - PRICE GUARANTEE, or WE WILL MEET OR BEAT, or NO ONE BEATS MY PRICE, or BRING IN ANY COMPETITORS PRICE AND WE WILL MEET OR BEAT IT, and on and on. Sure you have look at your local paper, it's their under some prudent businesses like hmmm lemme see, Oh I know WALMART, HOME DEPOT, K MART, LOWES, SEARS, BIG O TIRES, actually most prudent businessmen agree with me over you.



Great, but my point is you are leaving money on the table, you just admitted that, " in most cases" in my dealings I negotiate and get a deal in "ALL" cases. I never leave money on the table. If you worked for me and didn't negotiate till you laned a piece of business you would be fired for not working hard enough for the business. The people that work for me better work for the sale not just be an order taker. An order taker is someone who spits out a price and writes an order, not in my comapany, If you don't bring in a sale you better have a GREAT reason why not, and a " I gave him the price and he didn't buy" would end that person in the unemployment line.



Cmon - this what if rubbish has to end soon. OK iI'll still play. What if LC was cutting and bill Gates walked up and said I'll give you a million dollars to let me ride on your tractor - could happen. How about this one, LC is cutting the guys property, and tells LC , you know I'm tired of this property wanna buy it from me for a $1.00.

Lets see if this makes my point. This week a guy put a bid on rebuilding a bridge in California, most bids came in at 6.5 Mil, and 6 months this good ole boy, bid 1 million and said he would do it in 50 DAYS - he got the contract.
He finished in 15 days NOT 6 MONTHS, he got the 1.5 mil, plus a 250k bonus for every day he would finish early, or another 5 Mil. He got nearly as much as the highest bid. Side note, the man never finished high school.

Point is the " NORMAL GOING RATE" was 6 Mil, he "DISCOUNTED" ( not prudent)
to 1 mil, but ended up with 6mil. You see you never know what will transpire in any deal by walking away from deals.

Not buying the attitude thing either, the entire dealing with the " obnoxious dolt" would have been 3 minutes tops. It would go like this "YES", "PAY ME NOW" "THANK YOU" GOOD BYE" seriously how bad can it be to not to put up with for 3 minutes.

Bottom line LC " negotiated " for $50.00 more, but obdurately left $400.00 in the mans pocket. Yep his decision, his business, but in my book, bad business, and it looks like LC wife would agree with me, even if no one here will.

$400.00 in my pocket is ALWAYS better than $400.00 in a customers pocket.

You make mention of "living in the real world" in an earlier post. Try it you might like it. You're living, or at least POSTING in a hypothetical world more often than not. All these "what ifs" don't amount to squat. I don't see any "what ifs" in my post's. Just a few comments on what ISN'T there. (such as a guarantee of any future work from Mr. $400) I'm not representing anyone elses comments, merely stating I don't let my customers dictate my rates. I don't need to. I''ve never been that desperate for work. Most customers find the sleazy used car salesman "no one walks away" attitude repulsive.

Let's go back a step. That $400X100 won't even BEGIN to pay for a $40,000 tractor.... Unless you've found one that runs on NO FUEL, takes NO maintenance, your business pays no taxes, as well as no personal taxes for you, your insurance is free, your business has no overhead whatsoever, and you don't eat or live in a house. More likely, 200 or 250 of those $400 customers just to break even while paying for that $40,000 tractor. And I'm not into breaking even just to stay busy. That's insane. And your daydream that the guy with $400 has a million acres. Maybe he has 10 and is looking to sell them, soon to have nothing at all. That's just as possible and more likely at that. Banking on more than is really on the table is a dream. It's good to have dreams, but try cashing a dream at the bank. There are millions of very successful businessmen that agree discounting labor below their normal rate is for low-ballers who live week to week and paycheck to paycheck. I don't see a long list of folks jumping in with your defense. But there seems to be a fair amount that are siding with the majority, who believe it's bad business to give away your work.

Most of us won't bend over backwards to pacify .33% of our customers when the world is full of clients that aren't in it for charity. I'd be first in line to discound a $4000 job by $50 or $100 but to give a 20% give-away on such an insignificant part of my business is just ridiculous.

Your buddy the bridge builder, well, he left 6 mil laying on the table. If he got the job done that quickly, he obviously poured labor and equipment on the job, eating gaping holes in his bonus. It's not what you make. It's what you get to KEEP. His willingness to give away his work isn't quite the shining example you'd like to portray.

You bring mass market retail in as your example (meet or beat prices) That has absolutely NOTHING to do with a small operation, mostly labor based, and no "product" other than that labor. It's simple to say that labor is a "product" or "commodity" but it's not really. Business Economics 101 teaches that on DAY 1.

You're right about one thing. I wouldn' work for you. But then again, by operating with sound business practices, I'm not forced to work for a low-baller. I'm doing quite well by standing by my convictions and NOT trying to win friends by giving away my labor.

 

[BillyP]

I always thought of it as negotiating? Ain't no need in getting into a piissing contest.

 

[DmansPadge]

All LoneCowboy did was draw a line... which is what he should do. There is a point where it isn't worth it. If you went to the store to buy a gallon of milk and it cost $10.... would you buy it? How about if it cost $25, or $50, or $100?