flusher
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The ROPS Police - fact or fiction?
- Thread starter MadReferee
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MadReferee
Elite Member, Rest in Peace
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I've been around here for a while and I don't recall anyone ever stating that drilling a hole in the ROPS or doing anything to the ROPS would void a new tractor warranty.)</font>
Mike,
That's odd. Where have you been for the last 4 years. Better yet, where have you been for the last few days. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Take a look HERE about 4 posts down, the one by RoyJackson. This is typical of the comments made by posters on TBN. That is a fact.
Mike,
That's odd. Where have you been for the last 4 years. Better yet, where have you been for the last few days. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Take a look HERE about 4 posts down, the one by RoyJackson. This is typical of the comments made by posters on TBN. That is a fact.
riptides
Super Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( <font color="#666666"> ( I've been around here for a while and I don't recall anyone ever stating that drilling a hole in the ROPS or doing anything to the ROPS would void a new tractor warranty.) </font> )</font>
Heee heeee......
Well Mad,
You just had to drag this up again.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
When I check out, if it is by the tractor, I wanna go see the light and have a clear mind that I did not drill my ROPS.
The only person(s) I wanna see crying at the funeral is the insurance people.
On the serious side, I am not a metalurist, no hardware engineer, I have not been schooled or studied in stress dynamics, nor have I the option of computer modelling for load and pressure distributions on my ROPS.
Therefor I elect not to poke holes in it.
-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Heee heeee......
Well Mad,
You just had to drag this up again.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
When I check out, if it is by the tractor, I wanna go see the light and have a clear mind that I did not drill my ROPS.
The only person(s) I wanna see crying at the funeral is the insurance people.
On the serious side, I am not a metalurist, no hardware engineer, I have not been schooled or studied in stress dynamics, nor have I the option of computer modelling for load and pressure distributions on my ROPS.
Therefor I elect not to poke holes in it.
-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Farmwithjunk
Super Member
I'm trying to be the "Swiss Embasy" in all of this. (Home of nuetrality?) This subject and the grade 70/grade 43 chain/nylon strap controversy is likened to a presidential election debate. It's gettin' UGLY guys! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
All that said, and hardly worth the bandwidth it takes up, here's my opinion.
I recently read an article on John Deere's developement of the ROPS design they pioneered in the mid-sixties that became the standard. After they released their design on Deere tractors, they released patent rights to all other manufacturers for use throughout the industry. The tractor I have with the ROPS is one of Deere's "first generation designs". It is on a tractor that was sold new in 1978, some 12 years after the first ones hit the dealerships.
It has holes drilled and tapped in the sides of the main uprights. They are mounting points for reflectors/lights. I'm absolutely certain had Deere doubted the integrety of the roll bar as a result of these 4 holes ((drilled and tapped for 1/4"-20 bolts) they wouldn't have done it.
That being said, Deere (or whoever make the ROPS on YOUR tractor) takes on liability for the performance of their product. Modifying their basic design in any way would be an easy out for them in a court case I'm sure. (At the very least, it would allow doubt to be placed in a jury's mind)
I wouldn't go to punching holes in one without a REALLY good reason. I doubt seriously that it would effect the integrety of said ROPS, but why flirt with disaster?
And I sure hope none of us are the ones to explore the implications of this thread...............
All that said, and hardly worth the bandwidth it takes up, here's my opinion.
I recently read an article on John Deere's developement of the ROPS design they pioneered in the mid-sixties that became the standard. After they released their design on Deere tractors, they released patent rights to all other manufacturers for use throughout the industry. The tractor I have with the ROPS is one of Deere's "first generation designs". It is on a tractor that was sold new in 1978, some 12 years after the first ones hit the dealerships.
It has holes drilled and tapped in the sides of the main uprights. They are mounting points for reflectors/lights. I'm absolutely certain had Deere doubted the integrety of the roll bar as a result of these 4 holes ((drilled and tapped for 1/4"-20 bolts) they wouldn't have done it.
That being said, Deere (or whoever make the ROPS on YOUR tractor) takes on liability for the performance of their product. Modifying their basic design in any way would be an easy out for them in a court case I'm sure. (At the very least, it would allow doubt to be placed in a jury's mind)
I wouldn't go to punching holes in one without a REALLY good reason. I doubt seriously that it would effect the integrety of said ROPS, but why flirt with disaster?
And I sure hope none of us are the ones to explore the implications of this thread...............
OP
MadReferee
Elite Member, Rest in Peace
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You are all missing the point. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
The original question is whether or not making any modification (ie. drilling, cutting, etc.) to the ROPS will void the tractor warranty as some continue to claim. I still say that statement is fiction.
I am not questioning the claim that certain modifications (ie. cutting, shortening/lengthening, etc.) to the ROPS will cause it to not perform as intended. But the paranoia over drilling a few small holes or welding a tab to mount a light or two is ridiculous, just ask any structural engineer. And the idea that doing so will void all the tractor warranties is absurd.
I am also not debating the liability issues just the voiding of the warranty issues. Even so, drilling a small hole or two is not going to cause the ROPS to fail.
The original question is whether or not making any modification (ie. drilling, cutting, etc.) to the ROPS will void the tractor warranty as some continue to claim. I still say that statement is fiction.
I am not questioning the claim that certain modifications (ie. cutting, shortening/lengthening, etc.) to the ROPS will cause it to not perform as intended. But the paranoia over drilling a few small holes or welding a tab to mount a light or two is ridiculous, just ask any structural engineer. And the idea that doing so will void all the tractor warranties is absurd.
I am also not debating the liability issues just the voiding of the warranty issues. Even so, drilling a small hole or two is not going to cause the ROPS to fail.
I don't know Mad; there seems to be consequences from drilling your ROPS.
Henro used to post here a lot. Then he drilled his ROPS for lights, and no one's heard from him in six (?) months. Could drilling his ROPS be the cause??????????????? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ron
Henro used to post here a lot. Then he drilled his ROPS for lights, and no one's heard from him in six (?) months. Could drilling his ROPS be the cause??????????????? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ron
Mad,
I guess I cant directly address the question in point, but for arguments sake I'll add my take, maybe reitterating my earlier post.
I'm in the automotive biz. I have seen many instances that relate to the question, although it automotive rather than tractors.
Someone earlier made the point that the dealer was the judge. This is true in the fact that the MFG cannot be there to make all judgements. If the dealer sees that you have made a "saftey modification" they must note it somewhere. This will release the dealer and mfg from liability as long as you sign off and acknowledge the fact.
In no way could the dealer let you hang by denying waranty on your drivetrain because you cut your seatbelts out. Any court in the country would laugh that out..... I'm not a lawyer, but I have seen and heard from folks that this has been tried...
By drilling the ROPS you assume the responsibility because you have modified the original design that was tested to be safe. They cannot guarantee that it is still safe, therfore, your on your own.
Not sure if this added anything. But if a dealer tells me that the entire waranty would be viod if I modified a saftey device, I would be looking for another dealer.
I guess I cant directly address the question in point, but for arguments sake I'll add my take, maybe reitterating my earlier post.
I'm in the automotive biz. I have seen many instances that relate to the question, although it automotive rather than tractors.
Someone earlier made the point that the dealer was the judge. This is true in the fact that the MFG cannot be there to make all judgements. If the dealer sees that you have made a "saftey modification" they must note it somewhere. This will release the dealer and mfg from liability as long as you sign off and acknowledge the fact.
In no way could the dealer let you hang by denying waranty on your drivetrain because you cut your seatbelts out. Any court in the country would laugh that out..... I'm not a lawyer, but I have seen and heard from folks that this has been tried...
By drilling the ROPS you assume the responsibility because you have modified the original design that was tested to be safe. They cannot guarantee that it is still safe, therfore, your on your own.
Not sure if this added anything. But if a dealer tells me that the entire waranty would be viod if I modified a saftey device, I would be looking for another dealer.
Farmwithjunk
Super Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( You are all missing the point. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
)</font>
I don't see it that way. Maybe a few are, but I see the point you're trying to make all too clearly. In an earlier post, I asked the straight-up question, "Does ANYONE know PERSONALLY of a warrenty claim being denied strictly based upon someone drilling a hole in a ROPS structural member"? No one replied. I'm assuming that's because no one has actual "real world knowledge" of such an event happening. It's purely a hypothetical situation.
I know of no such circumstances. No one will tell me about such circumstances as they REALLY happened. I can't imagine any dealer/manufacturer voiding a warrenty, based on a claim OTHER THAN THE ROPS FAILING, based on drilling a hole in a ROPS structure.
Isn't THAT your point?
The follow-up comments on the prudence of drilling that hole was merely peoples opinions on how "wise" of a decision it would be to do so.
)</font>
I don't see it that way. Maybe a few are, but I see the point you're trying to make all too clearly. In an earlier post, I asked the straight-up question, "Does ANYONE know PERSONALLY of a warrenty claim being denied strictly based upon someone drilling a hole in a ROPS structural member"? No one replied. I'm assuming that's because no one has actual "real world knowledge" of such an event happening. It's purely a hypothetical situation.
I know of no such circumstances. No one will tell me about such circumstances as they REALLY happened. I can't imagine any dealer/manufacturer voiding a warrenty, based on a claim OTHER THAN THE ROPS FAILING, based on drilling a hole in a ROPS structure.
Isn't THAT your point?
The follow-up comments on the prudence of drilling that hole was merely peoples opinions on how "wise" of a decision it would be to do so.
RedRocker
Veteran Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I find these ROPS discussions highly amusing. ROPS get treated as if they are some highly engineered piece of space hardware that are constructed out of diamond plated unobtanium. Oh my god - Oh my god you touched the ROPS your whole world is going to come crashing down! Fer cryin out loud - a ROPS is a steel tube of some form that is hopefully strong enough and designed properly to not bend if the tractor happens to turn over.
Welding or drilling a hole in a ROPS in and of itself is not going to be enough to cause the ROPS to fail. Of course if you burn a big hole thru the side of the rops right along the edge of a tube - then yes you most likely will have a problem with the ROPS collapsing if you tip the tractor over. If you start drilling holes all over the rops right along the edges of the tube bends- then yes again you will probably cause a ROPS failure. The point is to know what you are doing before doing the modification. )</font>
Exactly what I've said, a couple of folks freaked when I welded a couple of tabs on mine.
Welding or drilling a hole in a ROPS in and of itself is not going to be enough to cause the ROPS to fail. Of course if you burn a big hole thru the side of the rops right along the edge of a tube - then yes you most likely will have a problem with the ROPS collapsing if you tip the tractor over. If you start drilling holes all over the rops right along the edges of the tube bends- then yes again you will probably cause a ROPS failure. The point is to know what you are doing before doing the modification. )</font>
Exactly what I've said, a couple of folks freaked when I welded a couple of tabs on mine.
Attachments
Fact: Per the Magnuson-Moss warranty act, the warranting company cannot (legally) deny warranty for ANY consumer modification unless it is PROVEN to be the cause of the failure. UNLESS that right is expressley signed away at purchase time through any other verbiage or addendum in the warranty papers.
Fact: The above is based in civil law not criminal. So the warranting company can still deny warranty coverage. It is completely up to the consumer to 1) be aware of the first fact and 2) be willing to take it far enough (in court) to force the warranting company to live up to those standards. Frankly number 2 here can get very costly and be more than paying the fix it fees yourself. And again, the ability to fight it depends on whether you signed away any rights to fight their original decision.
I'm the type that would fight a company till I'm broke just to make them do the right thing.
Options, available to you if you get in a bad situation and know that you are in the right. Make noise and make a stink. Look to some consumer groups for financial help fighting them. Most news casts in certain areas have consumer help columns and will publicize obviously "snake in the grass" tactics. Turn the tables and make them live up to human standards.
Fact: The above is based in civil law not criminal. So the warranting company can still deny warranty coverage. It is completely up to the consumer to 1) be aware of the first fact and 2) be willing to take it far enough (in court) to force the warranting company to live up to those standards. Frankly number 2 here can get very costly and be more than paying the fix it fees yourself. And again, the ability to fight it depends on whether you signed away any rights to fight their original decision.
I'm the type that would fight a company till I'm broke just to make them do the right thing.
Options, available to you if you get in a bad situation and know that you are in the right. Make noise and make a stink. Look to some consumer groups for financial help fighting them. Most news casts in certain areas have consumer help columns and will publicize obviously "snake in the grass" tactics. Turn the tables and make them live up to human standards.
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