The ROPS Police - fact or fiction?

kenmac · Dec 20, 2005

Ok, I just got off the phone with the local Kobuta dealer and asked the question. He said that they would make a note that the rops had been modified & have the person to sign ., but they would honor the tractor warranty engine , trans,etc; So I guess myth is busted

BillyP · Dec 20, 2005

You go to arbitration & fight it out where you pay a portion & they pay a portion 

Arbitration will some day be considered unconstitutional. Companies put arbitration clauses in because it's so expensive, the consumer can't afford it. In a lot of cases, arbitration cost is 5,000 percent more than a lawsuit. In most cases, arbitration will cost you more than what you would be suing for.

cowboydoc · Dec 20, 2005

In a lot of cases, arbitration cost is 5,000 percent more than a lawsuit. In most cases, arbitration will cost you more than what you would be suing for. 

I'm not sure what arbitration company you're dealing with Billy but in general a consumer arbitration hearing on cases that are less than $75,000 the cost to the consumer is only $125 max. That is from the American Arbitration Association that handles the bulk of consumer related affairs. The rules are also extremely slanted to the consumer by the federal legislation regarding arbitration. I don't see arbitration as the failure but rather as a blessing to legal problems on both sides. You can't even talk to a lawyer for $125. Yet for that amount your case can be heard by a neutral third party. If you read the federal legislation it is against the law and there are huge fines and penalties for an arbitrator to have any association at all with a corporation or business.

IslandTractor · Dec 20, 2005

( If we resell that machine with modified ROPS we are not liable if that modifcation fails. )

Did you mean that. Seems to me dealers would be concerned that they WOULD be held liable for problems if they knew (or should have known etc) that a ROPs had been modified.

BillyP · Dec 20, 2005

Public Citizen's survey of costs finds that, for example, the forum fee for a $60,000 employment discrimination claim in the Circuit Court of Cook County, Illinois is $221. The forum fees for the same claim before the National Arbitration Forum (NAF) would be $10,925, 4,943% higher. An $80,000 consumer claim brought in Cook County would cost $221, versus $11,625 at NAF, a 5,260% difference. These high costs are not restricted to NAF; for the same $80,000 claim, the American Arbitration Association (AAA) would charge the plaintiff up to $6,650, and Judicial Arbitration and Mediation Services (JAMS) would charge up to $7,950, amounting to a 3,009% and 3,597% difference in cost, respectively.

cowboydoc · Dec 20, 2005

Billy that isn't the website. If you go the website for AAA they clearly spell out the total costs. A consumer claim is only $125 maximum up to $75,000. The figures you give don't make alot of sense either. What does $221 get you? That sounds like it is just the filing fees.

MadDog · Dec 20, 2005

I'm not intending to "hijack" this thread; just to respond to some points that have been made:

1. It is just plain common sense that if you're going to mount anything on a ROPS, it is much safer to do so w/U-bolts or any other method that doesn't involve cutting or drilling the ROPS. I have lots of stuff (rear work lights, bar for hydraulics for my TnT, all attached to my ROPS, but none of it involved drilling.

2. As for arbitration, it is true that the filing fees for any substantial arbitration claims are a good deal higher than the filing fee for a Court case, however the total cost is usually less because arbitration rules permit far less pre-hearing discovery (no depositions unless the parties agree to have them) and much less "motion practice" before you get to a hearing. It's the lawyer time and costs associated with pre-trial discovery and other wrangling that make litigation generally more expensive than arbitration or mediation. That said, for a big claim I think that you are much safer in litigation because if you elect arbitration, all you are entitled to is an honest (but not necessarily a correct) resolution of the dispute. An arbitration award cannot be reversed for even gross errors of law or fact; only for corruption or a couple of other equally unlikely defects. If the arbitrator goes off the deep end and comes up with a "wacko" decision, you don't have any remedy. For a claim too small to be worth litigating, that is fine, it is the only practical remedy; but for a big $ claim I don't think that it is a smart way to go.

kenmac · Dec 20, 2005

I know this post wasn't about arbitration, I guess it's ok since the myth about rops & warranty appear to be busted,at least by the dealer I called . Nothing against you maddog, but it appears that if you purchase anything these days you will sign an arbitraion clause or you want be able to buy,because everyone seems to be on the same page. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

MikePA · Dec 20, 2005

There have always been posters who insist that drilling a hole in the ROPS or doing anything to the ROPS will void your new tractor warranty. 
I've been around here for a while /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif and I don't recall anyone ever stating that drilling a hole in the ROPS or doing anything to the ROPS would void a new tractor warranty. Plenty of discussion that it could weaken the ROPS, shift the liability from the manufacturer to the owner and could cause 'problems' at trade in time, etc.

jim_wilson · Dec 20, 2005

I find these ROPS discussions highly amusing. ROPS get treated as if they are some highly engineered piece of space hardware that are constructed out of diamond plated unobtanium. Oh my god - Oh my god you touched the ROPS your whole world is going to come crashing down! Fer cryin out loud - a ROPS is a steel tube of some form that is hopefully strong enough and designed properly to not bend if the tractor happens to turn over. People weld up roll cages in their backyard garages and then take their race cars out and roll them over, crash them into walls, etc. and walk away all the time. If you look at any racing organization they have specific rules about how a rollbar or rollcage must be constructed - and they get inspected. As long as all that is done properly you are generally considered to have a safe cage.

Welding or drilling a hole in a ROPS in and of itself is not going to be enough to cause the ROPS to fail. Of course if you burn a big hole thru the side of the rops right along the edge of a tube - then yes you most likely will have a problem with the ROPS collapsing if you tip the tractor over. If you start drilling holes all over the rops right along the edges of the tube bends- then yes again you will probably cause a ROPS failure. The point is to know what you are doing before doing the modification.

The issues mentioned are more due the current legal climate and liability concerns than technical issues of ROPS modification. It seems with the existing laws we have you are pretty much guaranteed to be found liable for something no matter what you did if the person coming after you has enough money to get lawyers that are willing to find the right legal precedents. If you modified the ROPS and somebody takes the tractor and tips it over and hurts themselves because they were not wearing the seatbelt - guess what you will be held liable because you changed the weight distribution of the tractor and made it tip over. Did you leave the ROPS unmodified and somebody tipped the tractor over and hurt themselves - guess what you should have known that the ROPS was insufficient to offer proper protection and made modifications to enhance safety. It's all in how much $$ you have and what the lawyer and judges think the law says.

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif