Tier 4 info

[varmint]

I just ran across this lengthy article on Tier 4 emissions- I think it okay to link to it, since this is a discussion forum.
What Tier 4 Final Brings | Construction Equipment

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

I don't have the patience to research and understand all of that. I'm just glad I've got a Tier 3 tractor and don't have to worry about it. I'm old enough that I hope to never have to buy a new tractor with all the Tier 4 stuff on it.

 

[MHarryE]

And I like that chopping hay with the same model and year chopper, I chop 30% more hay per day with my 118 PTO HP Tier IV interim with DPF, DOC, HPCR and CEGR than my brother-in-law with his non-emissions controlled 145 PTO HP tractor, and use less fuel per chopper box. Unfortunately his grandkids want to ride with me because grandpa's tractor stinks.

 

[wmonroe]

There have been so few (any?) issues reported with the tractor emissions system on this board, I'm surprised this is still a debate. The technology is not new and has been in trucks for a while now.

 

[Rocky Hoffler]

They have been around for a while just ask anyone with a Ford 6.0 or 6.4

 

[MHarryE]

On highway standards approximately equivalent to off-highway Tier4 interim and Tier 4 final have been in place for several years and they have had problems from which off highway learned lessons. I have seen people on this hoard say that some Kubota tractors did not regenerate like they were supposed to and needed a modification. Other than that pretty much silent but lots of fear. Maybe others have heard different. I have one DPF equipped tractor (completing second year) and know of 3 neighbors. No problems but small sample. Longest hour usage of those 4 tractors is now approaching 1700.

 

[Scott65]

6.0 powerstrokes are basically unrelated, they had an egr system and a catalytic converter much like a gasoline engine. 6.4's, on the other hand, did have a dpf system that are prone to failure but were early enough that they probably hadn't worked the kinks out of the technology. They were put on the market 6 years ago.

I haven't read the link yet since I'm on my phone when I found this thread. And I really don't have any valuable input, other than to say that in the hundred hours that I've put on my 32 hp kubota L3301, 3 or 4 regens, I haven't had any problems. Tractor always runs smooth as silk, no obnoxious fumes, not a fuel hog in my opinion. I've been pretty impressed, even though it's my first tractor and I have nothing other than my automotive diesel mechanic experience to judge off of. My only complaint is that it never fails, it wants to regen either late when I'm getting ready to shut down, or when I'm nearly out of fuel.

My only potential concern is for the future. Not sure the life expectancy of the dpf. And being a mechanic, it's uncomfortable for me to know that I can't access the electronics to diagnose my own machine. And the regen process requires several minutes of high, unloaded rpm's. What happens when the machine is old and on its "last leg" and asks for a regen? Might do it in. But that's a long time from now. For now, I'll just remain happy with my properly operating purchase

 

[Scott65]

My apologies, I said 6 liters are unrelated. When I think of the tractor tier 4 subject, I think of the dpf. If you are including all emissions equipment, then yes, it is related. I'm too ignorant on the tractor portion of this subject. When I bought the rig, I was made aware of the dpf, but nothing else. So I don't know what other emissions components they might be running

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Not sure the life expectancy of the dpf.

two versions. sealed versions - 5000 hours (Kubota B & F), split containers that can be rebuilt ($300-600 is what we are hearing) are 3500 hours.

it would make sense that this would vary depending how slow the customer is running the engine. Heat is your friend.

 

[MHarryE]

If you Google the firms that clean the ash out of DPFs a lot of the cost depends on how you treat the machine. My Kubota manual says to clean the ash out of the DPF at 3,000 hours but also states it depends on how you use the machine. I have seen costs at about $200 for a basic cleaning. It does state if regens come to quickly it is time to clean. I'm curious to know what the norm will be but our 2 John Deere dealers and 1 Kubota dealer with whom we do business have yet to work on a DPF.

 

[Scott65]

Interesting. It sounds like it's mostly just like the trucks I work on, except they are based on mileage instead of hours. I pull the dpf's all the time to have them baked. Only problem is on a truck, the pcm needs to be reset so the regen schedule is rearranged accordingly.

This raises a question for me. At what speed should I normally be running for "general use" on my l3301? The only reference I've been made aware of is the rpm (marked on the gauge) to obtain 540 at the pto. Obviously it's nice to achieve the most power. But as a mechanic, it's always in the back of my mind not to have it's tongue hanging out unnecessarily. Over revving heats the fluids, hammers on bearings, etc. And in west texas, just turning the key on, I'm already starting off at 100 degrees

 

[wmonroe]

Interesting. It sounds like it's mostly just like the trucks I work on, except they are based on mileage instead of hours. I pull the dpf's all the time to have them baked. Only problem is on a truck, the pcm needs to be reset so the regen schedule is rearranged accordingly. This raises a question for me. At what speed should I normally be running for "general use" on my l3301? The only reference I've been made aware of is the rpm (marked on the gauge) to obtain 540 at the pto. Obviously it's nice to achieve the most power. But as a mechanic, it's always in the back of my mind not to have it's tongue hanging out unnecessarily. Over revving heats the fluids, hammers on bearings, etc. And in west texas, just turning the key on, I'm already starting off at 100 degrees

I run mine at whatever rpm I feel is right for the task, loader work around 1800-2200, running my finish mower about 2200, brush hog 2200-2600 depending on how thick the brush, bailer gets run right at pto speed which is 2600. You're not going to hurt the engine by running it at the rated rpm, these tractor engine are designed to run at that speed continuously. Noise is the only reason I run mine at a lower speed, but if I'm in a hurry or just feel like hearing the engine I'll run it at pto speed even if I'm just driving it between jobs.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

we're always reminding people... #1 use for Kubota engines is not in tractors, its refer trailers. They run for thousands of hours toggling between off and wide open throttle. Its hard to hurt one.

 

[Scott65]

Monroe, thanks, I feel better. Those are nearly exactly the numbers I've been running. I've found that heavy loading, the hydraulics seem to peak just at, or maybe even a little above the pto set point. But after a bit, things start smelling a bit different. Mine is hydrostatic drive. I suspect I'm smelling hydraulics, either loader or trans. I did notice the other day though, stick your hand under the air filter inlet when idled up, even to just 1500 or so. Man, that thing swallows some air. I live in very dusty conditions. It's hard to imagine an air filter lasting more than 10-20 hours at that velocity...

Messick, thanks for your info as well. I'm glad to know the motors are that good. As stated above, this early on my issue isn't with the motor so much as with the smell of the hydraulics getting hot. Not to mention fading lifting capacities. I noticed the power loss the first few days but assumed it was normal since any fluid will lose viscosity when heated. I wonder if kubota recommends heavier oil in hotter climates, like some autos do for engine oil?

 

[wmonroe]

What do you mean the hydraulics fade? I've never noticed this on mine and it does not sound normal. Do you have a way to measure the temp of the transmission (I've used a laser/infrared on the tranny case/filter/etc)? I can't remember the temperatures I've had now but baling hay or doing heavy loader or backhoe work I've never noticed any fading. My climate is not nearly as hot as yours so that might be some of the difference. Have you cleaned out the hydraulic fluid cooler and radiator?

 

[Scott65]

I've cleaned the radiator many times. I'm not sure where the hydraulic cooler is, unless its in the heat exchange stack with the radiator. I've just now gotten with Messicks to determine which of their parts diagrams go with my model but theres something wrong with their pdf's at the moment. So hopefully I will know soon, unless you can advise of its location.

I do have a laser thermometer so I should be able to check a few spots, but it will probably be this weekend before I can do so. I think I read somewhere that the hydro trans and FEL hydraulics are different? As well as possibly power steering? Again, without parts breakdowns and some plumbing schematics, I'm not sure of this. I lose power steering most often. Next most common is FEL. I never lose functionality, just slows down a bit it seems, and probably loses a little power for pulling a full scoop of dirt out of a pile. Trans is hard to judge, I'm not sure that I ever really lose any of its capacity. So if it is indeed a separate system, checking its temperature may not show too much. If so, I'm not sure where to check temp for the FEL hydraulics? I do know that when the power seems to fade, it is uncomfortable to touch the front lines, fittings, and cylinders. And an easy to describe point of reference: When the tractor is at a cooler operating temp, revved up to a "normal running rpm", the FEL will lift the front tires by itself. After worked hard and smelling this warm fluid smell I'm talking about, same rpm, it will no longer do so. I have to "drive into it" for the loader to lift the wheels. Same for the power steering. When cool, it works great. But after heating up, if I'm sitting still, I intermittently lose power assist until I'm rolling again.

I think it was like this all along (I bought the tractor brand new, 2 or 3ish months ago). But like I say, I live in a very dusty region. It could be that a cooler that I'm unaware of is stopped up somewhere and it has been that way since a few days after purchase. I was like a kid on Christmas morning with this thing. When the tires hit the ground off the trailer, I probably didn't shut it off until the tank was dry... So performance change could have gone unnoticed fairly easily in the beginning.

 

[wmonroe]

Have you talked to the dealer about the issue? The front loader should lift the front end off the ground whether it is hot or not. When I have my backhoe attachment on and am digging a lot the cylinders on the hoe will get hot enough it's uncomfortable to leave my hand on them but it is only about 120-130* which isn't really that hot.

 

[Scott65]

I haven't talked to them because up until now I thought it was probably somewhat normal. But now I'm thinking I should for good measure. I hope my kubota dealer is better than most other dealers I'm used to dealing with. Otherwise they won't likely run it long or hard enough, or will just dismiss it as normal whether it is or not. In another thread a couple weeks ago I got some advice on how to hook up a pressure gauge to check and possibly increase the pressure. This was one of the reasons in the back of my mind for doing this. I might check it first, just so I have some ammo in case they try to blow me off

 

[MHarryE]

My Tier 4 interim tractor is probably 50% at max throttle, 40% PTO, and 10% low speed maneuvering around, switching implements! etc. regen temp is in the 1100 - 1200 degrees by the display, heavy work can keep it between 1000 - 1100 so there is not much added heat needed to regen. Consequently the regens have been as low as 18 hours and as high as 52 hours depending on how it's being worked. The Nebraska Tractor Test states that Kubota gave them an average 13 hours between regens, something I have not seen anywhere other than in the Nebraska test. My neighbor's M109GX regens more frequently than my M135GX, possibly due to his smaller DPF but then again he uses his tractor much differently than I use mine. His spends most of its time with a disc mower or moving bales while mine is chopping haylage or tillage. My neighbor is 87 and I thought he might have problems figuring out the regen but he learned quickly.

I don't know how the trucks would do in comparison. I suspect they do not run fairly constant DPF filter temperatures near their regeneration temperatures. Also I suspect the DPF substrate is more rugged on an off-highway machine than on an on-highway truck. But at Cat I never was involved in on-highway engines. But in my involvement in mainly 75 - 175 HP engines I would likely be leery of Tier 2, avoid Tier 3, accept Tier 4 interim, and like Tier 4 final best. Learning curve. Just like I would avoid early Bosch common rail systems but have confidence in them now. Denso - they tell me Japanese diesel has the lubricity of water so they are stout as far as wear.

 

[Scott65]

Harry,
I'm sorry, I don't understand the first part of your information. What are your percentages referring to? Also, that's a pretty handy feature to monitor your temps. Either I missed something, or more likely is mine doesn't have the capability to display the dpf temps, soot loads, etc.

And you're right, trucks are much different. The temperatures fluctuate constantly. The dpf will only regen under certain conditions, usually running down the highway. As a result, my most disgruntled customers are farmers and ranchers who idle their trucks all the time, which soots up the exhaust and is rarely able to enter regeneration mode