Timber to clear

[KreadyPalmyra]

Hello all...new to the site...highly recommended by a friend...hoping anyone can provide advice...

My wife and I own 42 acres of land (100% mature timber) in TN. We plan to "clear" approximately 2 acres of land in order to build a log home somewhere in the middle of the parcel. Problem is: we don't have any idea how to go about acquiring a timber company, what questions to ask them in order to ensure we're getting the most for our money, or any of the preliminary steps we need to take to ensure we're preparing the land properly prior to site preparation. Bottom line: we have a beautiful piece of land and know what we want at the end of it all, we just don't have any idea how to begin.

If anyone can offer any advice, we would be very appreciative.

Sincerely,
Eric & Jen

 

[dave1949]

Hello all...new to the site...highly recommended by a friend...hoping anyone can provide advice...

My wife and I own 42 acres of land (100% mature timber) in TN. We plan to "clear" approximately 2 acres of land in order to build a log home somewhere in the middle of the parcel. Problem is: we don't have any idea how to go about acquiring a timber company, what questions to ask them in order to ensure we're getting the most for our money, or any of the preliminary steps we need to take to ensure we're preparing the land properly prior to site preparation. Bottom line: we have a beautiful piece of land and know what we want at the end of it all, we just don't have any idea how to begin.

If anyone can offer any advice, we would be very appreciative.

Sincerely,
Eric & Jen

Welcome Eric&Jen.
It would help if you would share your vision of your goal. Leaving the other 40 acres as is or?
Dave.

 

[Mousefield]

Welcome to the site.
I'm in Canada but this will apply to you.
I would start by contacting several logging companies in your area and tell them what you are after.
What ever you do make sure it is in writing and have some type of map. Could save a lot of who said what afterwards, easy to have misunderstandings. It may be as important to consider (have in writing) what they are doing for you as what they are not doing for you A friend of mine had a logging company come in to selectively log but after they got finished not much was standing, left one heck of a mess. So measure the area you want logged and flag it with tape so they do not go past that point. Also are they digging out stumps and leveling the ground after? What is happening with the logs, are you selling them or for your use? What is going to happen to the branches etc? Will they be piled, burnt or just left on the ground. Lots to think about and I am sure you will get some excellent feed back from nice knowledgeable folks on this site.

 

[atgreene]

Talk to some foresters, talk to the state dept. of forestry, ask to see a list of loggers who have legal action against them by the state. Make sure you go to several other sites they have logged and talk to the property owners.

Bad loggers are a dime a dozen, find one you like and that comes with some recommendations from others.

 

[mkane09]

Howdy, Neighbors! I bought 25 acres about a year and a half ago, heavily timbered in East TN. I wanted to clear 4-5 acres for horse pasture and a home site. Very fortunately, I was put in contact with a man that does excavation. He brought in a big Case trackhoe and highlift. In 4-5 days, they had my 5 acres cleared, logs loaded and delivered to a local hardwood sawmill, land smoothed and planted with ryegrass. I was expecting BIG BUCKS from the two loads of mixed oak, poplar, beech, maple, hickory. I got a whopping $462. Bummer. But, they did a great job clearing my land. Around here, you can't get a timber company to clear less than 5 acres. The cost for my clearing work was $1400 per day, and they worked from sun up to sun down.

Good luck and take lots of pictures!

mkane09

 

[dave1949]

Howdy, Neighbors! I bought 25 acres about a year and a half ago, heavily timbered in East TN. I wanted to clear 4-5 acres for horse pasture and a home site. Very fortunately, I was put in contact with a man that does excavation. He brought in a big Case trackhoe and highlift. In 4-5 days, they had my 5 acres cleared, logs loaded and delivered to a local hardwood sawmill, land smoothed and planted with ryegrass. I was expecting BIG BUCKS from the two loads of mixed oak, poplar, beech, maple, hickory. I got a whopping $462. Bummer. But, they did a great job clearing my land. Around here, you can't get a timber company to clear less than 5 acres. The cost for my clearing work was $1400 per day, and they worked from sun up to sun down.

Good luck and take lots of pictures!

mkane09

I don't know about the lumber prices, lots of variables there. The $1400/per day for big equipment is right in the ballpark for my area.
Dave.

 

[smstonypoint]

I'm unclear as to the timber acreage to be harvested. A selective thinning of the entire tract might be in order to maintain the health of the entire timber stand.

I would consult the local state forest ranger. I don't know about TN, but in NC the state foresters will draw up a forest management plan for you at no charge. Again, I don't know about TN, but in NC you can qualify for lower property tax values for timberland as long as you are following an appropriate forest management plan.*

If you are going to do more than clear a home site, I would definitely hire a consulting forester to handle the sale for you. I think you would probably pay 10% or so in the way of a commission, but the forester would draw up the contract and monitor the logging operation.

Steve

PS. In NC, you have to have 20 or more contiguous acres of woodland to qualify for timber use valuation.

 

[Carl_NH]

Well Eric & Jen,

You have a project ahead, and it sort of sounds like you want to build a log home on your land from the trees harvested - just reading between the lines.

Dont know your timeline - is it this year - next? Size, family, needs? SF 2000' 4000'?

First - spend some time there - walking the land, especially now in the spring, you will see the way the sun sets, the water flows, and get a general "feeling" where you might want to locate a home (not like a house - you can put them anywhere)

Then once you have a home sited, generally positioned with the sun, views, driveway access, septic, water for drinking and other things that could impact construction, look at the trees and how you envision the end product in that place.

Once you have sort of figured out what and where, then engage the destruction team. If you intend to build with materials logged from the land, this will take a bit of time as the logs need to be cut, dried then milled, shaped for your home - thats about 12-18 months.

If you use your logs it will probably take 5-8 acres of select cutting (cutting the best ones to build with) to get the trees you need and then there will be other trees you will want to remove as part of this process. If this is the path you are considering you need to be in sync with the logger and sawmill selection to meet your end goal to use these to build.

On the other hand if you dont want to use your logs then skip the previous two paragraphs and go directly to tree removal once you have determined where you want to plant your home. By the way, the other posters are correct - your wood has nearly $0 value unless you have some large black walnut, cherry or other furniture grade trees (10-16' straight, no rot, 18-20" dia) so as other have said plan on $7-15K to remove the trees and leave you with a cleared driveway and home site.

Building in the middle of 42 Ac would indicate a 4000' driveway or nearly 3/4 mile so that alone is 15' x 4000' or about 2 Ac to clear and driveway prep with stone and base materials to get to the home site, then the site work and stumping of the additonal 2 Ac.

So, figure out where you want your home, then if you are the GC (general contractor) start to enquire locally who might do the site prep work.

Provide some more insight and you will get lots of "help" from the TBN crew on your adventure.

Carl

 

[shane]

As valuable as the information is that the guys here have already provided you might consider spending some time at this sister site www.forestryforum.com.

 

[KreadyPalmyra]

Thank you all very much for the great advice!!

Although I was a bit surprised to hear that beautiful wood is worth virtually ZERO, and that I'm looking at a 15K project (before even laying the first footer), I'm happy to receive such great advice from all of you (and I will begin to do my research and make the contacts you all recommended).

Thanks again! Best wishes!

Sincerely,
Eric & Jen Kready

 

[Carl_NH]

Eric & Jen,

Its not that your timber is worth $0 its the value of your timber versus the price of removal. You may have $20K of timber that takes $15K to remove, then the stumping and ground prep will eat up the rest - thats the $0 value issue.

In your case IF you have time, then take the advice given and hire a forester to determine the value of your timber. Alternately you can walk the land yourself and tally up the number of trees and approximate amount of clear timber logs and grade them in length and diameter. Then with this information you can access the stumpage price for your region. These prices are available on a monthly basis for each region of the country.

I will say this effort (your self evaluation) will likely lead to over valuing your timber leading to unrealistic expectations.

The next aspect is cost of the logging outfit, as they have $100K skidders, $60K trucks, $40K chippers and excavators that they need to pay for and fuel and man them daily, then their wages and insurance. So as others mentioned its about $12-1400/day to get these machines and people onto your property and doing work, so the logs/wood is their paycheck - thus the $0 value unless you have an exceptional stand of timber and furniture grade logs.


Summary - either hire a forester to evaluate your land, then develop a cutting plan for short and long term, or 2) hire a crew to put in the road and clear what is needed for a home. Only you can determine which is the best option at this point.

Keep us informed as to your decisions and plans..

Carl

 

[R_Walter]

Well Eric & Jen,

Building in the middle of 42 Ac would indicate a 4000' driveway or nearly 3/4 mile so that alone is 15' x 4000' or about 2 Ac to clear and driveway prep with stone and base materials to get to the home site, then the site work and stumping of the additonal 2 Ac.

Carl

Just curious what shape that 42 acres would have to be to require a 4,000 driveway in order to access the middle?

 

[EddieWalker]

Loggers have a very well deserved, bad reputation around here. There are some good, but trying to find the good ones can be challenging. I've talked to people who had their land logged with excellent results, but in every case, the phone number they gave me is no longer working.

I've called dozens and dozens of them to come otu and take my logs, but in 7 years, not one has ever showed up.

Over the phone, they all want my logs, but then they also want an minimum acerage to log and they want to be able to do it their way. I think this is where most of my problems with them comes from.

Of the people that I've spoken to abot having their land logged, it was either a total mess, they were not paid what they were promised because of the mill or conditions on their land or they just never heard back from them. The mess is always more expensive to clean up then you make off of the logs. In a few cases, I met people who said that they didn't make a dime off of the logs they sold, but had the stumps removed and the land smoothed out for turning it into pasture. If you can get that done without any expense on your part, thats just about the best deal I've heard of.

Those who seem to be happy with their loggers have hired a Forrester to do all the work. Your local Ag extension should be able to give you a list of those who do this for a living. Most are either former loggers, or government employees. They know the loggers, know the games they play and they know what the logs are worth. In every case, his fees are more then covered in a greater profit that you get from your logs because he is on your side and will get top dollar for you logs. You wont. You tell him what you want done, develop a long term plan and let him take responsibility for making sure it's done right.

Most of the time, it's cheaper to hire a pro then to learn how to do it the hard way.

Eddie

 

[dodge man]

In my area, my experience pretty much matchs Eddie Walkers. I've never had any done, but through my job, I have walked land that was logged. They basically take the fat part of the trunk and just leave the rest without any clean up. It is often a complete mess, but in all fairness, that is how they make money. They are loggers, not land clearing people. Unless you have some valuable timber, I'd just hire someone to clear what you need, and if he thinks it's worth saving the logs, than go for it.

 

[ToadHill]

Check with your extension service and ask if there are any Master Forest Owners in your area. This is a free program where trained individuals will cone out and walk your land with you and give advice.

If your want to timber the land they will also be able to put you in touch with foresters who will work for you. They take a portion of the price paid for the timber but the woods will be left looking good and the price you get will be far better than you will ever negotiate on your own.

I'll give you one example of what they do. I know 2 brothers who farm a piece near me. They wanted to buy some new equipment and had a timber company offer them $14,000for their timber. A friend talked them into hiring a forester to represent them. He came out marked the trees to be cut, developed a list of available timber and sent it out to 10 timber companies who got to bid on the timber. He and the brothers selected the company they wanted, the forester required the timber company to pay up front ( this means the trees are theirs and if any one is injured while cutting the lawsuit doesn't go to the property owner). The forester then supervised the cutting and cleanup of the woods, they timber company had to put a 10% deposit which they were paid back when the woods were cleaned up.

The price paid for the timber was $42,000 and the company that was awarded the contract was the same one that had offered the farmers $14,000 earlier.

The trees cut were only those marked by the forester and the origional proposal was to cut all trees over 16" in diameter. This would have caused all the good seed trees to be cut and it would probably be 50 or more years before another harvest could have been done. When only marked trees were cut, the remaining trees will grow faster as they get more sunlight and another harvest can most likely be done in 15 years.

The forester billed 10% or $4200 for his service but the brothers still came out ahead by almost $24,000.

It will be well worth your time to look into this.

 

[carasel]

call tn dept of forestry. they will come look at your land. make suggestions. they can mark your trees and give you a tally on bdf. marking and tallying they charge $8.50 +/- per 1000bdf. they will give sample contracts. a logger list they have worked with. so many other little things they will do.
they are coming in a few weeks to mark my trees. if your going to do this. the forester said do it soon. as the the state may cut the dept of forestry. due to the budget. he said it may happen in june or july.
the forester also said to ask your neighbors if their planning to cut timber. if it's all done at the same time you may get more interest ($$) in the sale.
read the forestry form as suggested. lots of info. get paid in full before any chainsaw gets started.

 

[forgeblast]

I was also approached to do a timber harvest. I had doubts first they were doing it on the "side". Meaning they worked for a timber company but were looking to make extra money. second they marked the trees they wanted before asking permission to come on my property.
So after the trees were marked i asked the forester to come and have a look. just as i thought they high graded all the trees. take the best trees and leave the worse, this as others have said really erodes your forests health.
with the forester there we looked at the cuts they did on my neigbors property some bad cuts where they ruined wood withpull outs, also we saw that the cherrys were growing about a 1/2' a year. so my cherrys are worth 500 a piece now in ten years will be worth 1000. thats a good reason to wait, also if i do some release cuts (cutt the surrounding trees to open up the canopy and reduce competition) they may grow a bit faster.
most people that i have talked to who dont use a forester are upset at loggers, use a forester and you will be much happier. 10% is nothing when you get an increased price, and quality work.
forgot to say, i didnt have them logg our property, and the easy way to get rid of them is to say let me see your insurance. no logging without insurance scares away most people.

 

[Carl_NH]

Just curious what shape that 42 acres would have to be to require a 4,000 driveway in order to access the middle?

Walter - I figured an acre is 43,560 SF or about 200'x200' = 40,000 SF which the center is 100' which i mentally calculated x 40 or 4000'. Where I erred is 42 acres is about 1400x1400' so the center would be 700' good catch on my mental multiplication error..

OR the house is on the top of a 800' hill and the driveway has 5 switchbacks to the top thus a 4000' driveway

 

[R_Walter]

OR the house is on the top of a 800' hill and the driveway has 5 switchbacks to the top thus a 4000' driveway

OR the house is in the middle of a rectangular piece of land that measures something like 228 ft x 8,024 ft and the 228 feet is the road frontage with the only access being from the road.

 

[kebo]

I didn't post on this thread earlier since others have already given good advice, but thought I would add in my two cents.

I'm very familiar with forestry operations here in SC, but not so much in Tenn but I really doubt there is that much difference in the way they operate. Logging crews cut and haul timber. Period. Then they move onto the next tract. They don't do grading or stump removal, that's not their specialty.

First off, no way will you get a *real* logging crew to come in and clearcut JUST TWO acres. No way will two acres have enough timber value to make it worth their time. It typically costs a logging crew $1000 or more to move their equipment from one tract to another tract, depending on how much equipment they have, and how far the move is. Typically they can clearcut from 10-20 acres or more in a DAY depending on how much equipment they have, accessibility of the land, has the timber already been thinned once, the weather, etc etc....

Two acres will hardly be three hours of work at the most, for a good logging crew. And even if you did get a crew in there, they would NOT want your stumps, nor would they get them up as part of the deal. There is no value in a stump, period, so you would still have to get someone in there with a dozer to really clear the land off.

Your only hope with a logging crew is if you can find a "short wooder". These guys typically have smaller operations, and specialize in cutting smaller tracts of timber that larger crews will pass on. Usually they will have just one big truck with a boom mounted grapple to load & haul the timber with, and a skidsteer with a grapple or maybe a very big tractor to skid the logs with. They usually cut the log lengths to about 18-20 ft lengths, hence the name short wooder. Once again, even with a short wooder, you will still have to get someone in there to push up the stumps because the short wooder doesn't want them either. The problem with that is there are not many short wooders around so you might have trouble finding one.

That pretty much leaves you with hiring the usual grading/clearing company with a big dozer and trackhoe to cut the road in, and then push the trees down and dig up stumps on two acres. Usually they like to push them into a gully or three if you have some, but if they have to be hauled out it will really add to the cost. The other option is to push them to one side into a long pile and burn it. Then wait for it to rot, or maybe dig a hole and try to bury most of it.

I guess the OP has learned all of this by now.