To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine?

[RobJ]

I believe it was RobJ that may have been implying you had soft hands..

Actually I wasn't implying anything, I said "if they" were soft. Only one knows ones hands the best. Let not others be the judge.... or even care! :d

As far as the valve seats, sometimes the manual is a "guide" so to speak. But an actual Ford manual on a model and serial numbers you have, should be pretty accurate...should be. To remove them I've had to 1) just pry out with a pry bar, 2)weld a bead on each side drawing them up and they will fall out, 3) grind a slit in several places and bust out. To install they will sometimes just pop in easy, or add a little heat to the head and drop them in. Valve quides you can also hammer in/out. But the special sized arbor is a big help.

Seals? you can probably use automotive umbrella type for a low revving diesel.

I think Soundguy covered the bearings.

 

[TYMinColton]

Seals? you can probably use automotive umbrella type for a low revving diesel.

So that's what those little gaskety-things are . . . not mentioned in my crappy "guide", but certainly should be easy enough to replace. We'll see about the valve seats/guides. I don't have currently have a press, a torch, or welding equipment.

Hey, what did I say a few posts back about an posting an update in a couple of weeks? Let's just revise that estimate to a couple of months . Looking forward to it

 

[Soundguy]

I believe you may be using hte I&T manual. while it is fine for small jobs and maintenance.. it is no comparison to real ford shop manuals.. some of which are hundreds of pages.. etc.

In any case.. I imagine you will get thru fine.

Some of us non pro mechanics have found that for small work like this.. that even a plumbers propane torch.. or a mapp gass torch from walmart ( 20$?? ) can get you thru 'general' heating issues.. and small crackerbox welders can usually be had for under 100$.. I started with a 89$ AC campbel hausfeld welder from walmart.. little stick job.. welded up to 70a using 5/64 or 1/16 rod.. small welder for sure.. but i welded alot of stuff with it... when you are just shrinking bearing races and such.. it is fine.

For real welding.. i finally upgraded to a hobart ac 235AXL stick welder... not deluxe.. but it will sure hotglue some thick metal together...

i bought that one back when i had to weld up the hinges on my batwing mower... the mobile welding service wanted at least 2x what that buzzbox cost from TSC.. I bought it and buzzed the hinges together and the mower has been fine for a few years now..... thus the welder was 'free' so to speak..

soundguy

 

[TYMinColton]

I believe you may be using hte I&T manual. while it is fine for small jobs and maintenance.. it is no comparison to real ford shop manuals.. some of which are hundreds of pages.. etc.

I'm definitely using the I&T. But given that I might want to adjust the SOS and do need to fix the PTO (if I get the engine running) I will need a more complete manual.

Some of us non pro mechanics have found that for small work like this.. that even a plumbers propane torch.. or a mapp gass torch from walmart ( 20$?? ) can get you thru 'general' heating issues.. and small crackerbox welders can usually be had for under 100$.

My B-day's coming up. These are the kind of things I can usually convince my dad, the engineer, that I really, really need .

i bought that one back when i had to weld up the hinges on my batwing mower... the mobile welding service wanted at least 2x what that buzzbox cost from TSC.. I bought it and buzzed the hinges together and the mower has been fine for a few years now..... thus the welder was 'free' so to speak.

Been there done that (expense part ). Had a portable welder come out to repair some stall doors that my horse decided "needed adjustment" . He did a nice job, but for what it cost me, I could have easily outfitted myself for home welding. Owning a small gentlemen's farm (translation = more $$$ in than out) just requires having the right equipment and lots of it . . . just have to convince my beautiful wife!
Thanks,
Pete

 

[Soundguy]

As Cash said.. just get it a 'piece at a time'!

soundguy

 

[john_bud]

John-bud, you might very well be correct on this one. The I&T manual I've been using is a little unclear. According to Paragraph 90, "Intake and exhaust valve guides are interchangeable only on non-diesel models and can be pressed from cylinder head if renewal is required."

On the other hand, the valve seats may be a different story. Paragraph 89 states, "Exhaust valves are equipped with free type rotators shown in Fig. F071 and, except on 144 cu in diesel engines, the valves seat on renewable type seat inserts which are shrink fit in the cylinder head. Intake valves and, on 144 cu in diesel engines, the exhaust valves seat directly on the cylinder head."

If I understand these paragraphs correct, both the exhaust and intake valves seat directly on the head for the 144 cu in diesel, but on the 172 cu in, the exhaust valves (but still not the intake) sit on renewable seats. Moreover, valves guides appear not to be interchangeable on any of the diesels engines. Seems to me that it would then be very difficult to remove the exhaust seats from the bottom of the head, while leaving intact the valve guides on the top of the head. Perhaps I haven't looked carefully enough, but I wasn't able to see any obvious seams for the valve guides. However, the seats do seem renewable . Adding to the confusion Restoration Supply company does indeed sell intake and exhaust valve guides $3-4 each . . . .

Does anyone understand this? Maybe someone out there with the ford shop manual can help me (us) out?
Pete

Part of the issue is the terms. The guides are cast iron tubes that are press fit into the head. You remove the rocker arm assembly and the valves, then with a solid steel dowel, you press them out. Can take 1-20 tons. Heating helps as does cleaning the carbon off.

They are 2 different lengths, so you can't swap (interchange) intake guides for exhaust guides. A decent engine shop or online kit dealer can get you a set. My shop had them for about 3-4 bucks each, which is cheap.


The valve seats are large round hardened steel rings that are frozen then placed into the precut pocket in the heated head. When the temps match, they are locked into place. When the head has no hardened seat, they just grind the parent head material. After a while the hole gets too large, then they cut it for a hardened seat -- no big deal. Aside from the cost! The hardened seats are more durable, but the no-seat is cheaper.


There are 2 common types of valve stem seals. The cheapest is the soft plastic umbrella that shed oil away from the guide. Often engines that smoke like a bug fogger have only lost the 25 cent umbrella seals. There are also expensive positive teflon seals, but you don't want to go there.

Hope that helps!

jb

 

[TYMinColton]

Thanks again for all of your help. Wouldn't be where I am today without it. . . .
So, here's where we are today. Pretty self-explanatory - Block and Guts! Block looks pretty clean, crank and camshafts removed. I was happily surprised to see how clean the main bearings looked. Certainly minimal hours after the last rebuild. Alas - if I'd only kept her out of the rain, perhaps we wouldn't be where we are today. Water under the bridge. . .

Things look really good thus far. I'm taking the block into a local engine shop for Honing (sunnen) and quick cleanup. If all goes well I'm planning on ordering oversized rings (to grind to fit), gaskets, and a few extras to clean up the valve-train.
Till later,
Pete

 

[Willl]

For some reason I was thinking this was going to be an 'in tractor' rebuild. Guess we can rule that out.

Can I assume the tractor is split in half ?, How did that go ? pics of the rest ?

 

[TYMinColton]

For some reason I was thinking this was going to be an 'in tractor' rebuild. Guess we can rule that out.

Can I assume the tractor is split in half ?, How did that go ? pics of the rest ?

Actually, the original plan was for an in tractor rebuild, but I had trouble locating the proper hone and decided it was worth the extra effort to have a closer look at the crank and camshafts. I also enjoy taking things apart - the engineering is remarkable when you consider no computers are involved. . . .

The front end split went surprisingly well. Jacked-up and built a crib under the tranny, removed the front axle assembly,

and then built up a second crib on wheels under the block and unbolted it. She slid forward quite easily from the front end of the tranny housing.

I then removed the ring gear, clutch, and Pulley Gear.

I was then able to spin the engine around and flip her on her side to remove the balancer, injector drive, and shafts.

Anything else you'd like to see? Just let me know. I'm documenting as I go to help with reassembly. If all goes well with the engine rebuild I still plan on disassembling the steering to find a powersteering leak, the rear tranny (maybe) to repair the PTO, and probably will completely clean her up and repaint. But. . . one thing at a time. Got to get her running!
Pete

 

[Willl]

A balancer ?, that must be that gizmo I was trying to identify in the last pic. Front center.

I've been into chevy and ford blocks quite often and never seen anything like that.

Do they counter-rotate ?