Tractor Weight

JCA · Apr 12, 2004

Kubs:

One more inquiry from a still-undecided buyer.

Speaking to a Kioti dealer the other day, he pointed out how much heavier a 20-horse Kioti is than a 20-horse Kubota. Looking around at other imports, I notice the same thing: Kioti, Mahindra...their 20 HP-class tractors run about a ton. The Kubota B7510 runs about 1350. That's a BIG weight difference.

Naturally, the other (non-Kub) dealers spin this in favor of their own products. And it's true: traditionally, weight is considered an advantage in tractors. The heavier the tractor is, the more it engages the ground, and the more stuff it can move. Kubotas (say these dealers) are lightweight tractors for lightweight applications. Kiotis, Mahindras, etc. are more serious machines.

Kubotas have a great reputation--the best rep in the industry as far as I can tell. I've never known nor heard of anyone who had one who wasn't happy with it. So I really don't believe these other dealer (after all, they're just looking for an advantage, like any dealer would be).

Then what IS the REAL story? If weight really IS an advantage--and I'm not experienced enough with tractors to know--then why doesn't Kubota design their tractors to weigh more? Is it a different design philosophy? Have Kub designer/engineers found a better way to achieve the same results? Do they choose to put their money into other areas instead of into more heavy steel? Or are they simply built more cheaply?

Cheers,
Jim

JerryG · Apr 12, 2004

As more and more hobby farmers have bought tractors, the weight has been reduced to add in mowing their lawns. Mowing lawns requires light weight to prevent damage to the turf, real tractor work requires weight to get the power to the ground.

Bird · Apr 12, 2004

Yep, Jim, kind of like Jerry said, it depends on what you're going to do with the tractor. If you're going to do a lot of lawn mowing, lighter's better. If you're going to be hauling your tractor from place to place on a trailer, lighter's better; don't need as strong a trailer or as heavy duty a tow vehicle. If you buy a light weight tractor, you can add wheel weights, liquid in tires, counterweights on the 3-point or on the front end of the tractor if you need more weight. However, if the tractor comes originally too heavy for what you need, kinda hard to find a place to take weight off. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif But if most of your work is pulling a plow or other such heavy load, then buy a heavy tractor to start with. And you can get heavy ones by going to larger sizes in any of the brands.

So, for those other dealers to say their tractor is better because it's heavier is nothing more than a sales pitch; a non-issue unless you know what it will be used for. Some have said the big 3 use a better grade of steel; doesn't require as much of it as the cheaper grades used by the cheaper manufacturers. Now I don't know hardly anything about the quality of the steel used by the different manufacturers, so I'd take that with a grain of salt, too. I had a Cub Cadet dealer once telling me how their rear axle housing was made of cast iron and "better" than the aluminum he said Kubotas were made of at that time. I didn't care what it was made of, I just want to know whether or not it's going to break, and if so, what will it cost to fix it. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

So, once again, we're back to whether a Chevrolet is better than a Ford; strong opinons on both sides. All that really matters is - If you're the buyer, which one do YOU like best.

nobull1 · Apr 12, 2004

I read here a while ago that the Kubota's were weighed without the tires.I wonder if that is true as 600 lbs is a lot of weight difference for only metal and if you add tires on, it would make them close.The Kioti weighs 50% more just does not seem right,not to say it isn't right.Has anyone actually weighed their Kubota to see if it is the same as what the spec's say?

TresCrows · Apr 12, 2004

The Kioti is a nice tractor. The B series Kubotas are not represented by any competitor in the Kioti line. The Kubota L series (not Grande L) are more like the Kioti tractors in both size and weight. You are comparing apples and oranges /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif. That new Kioti 20 horse is heavily built and I assume was intended to compete with Kubota B series, but that is their closest comparison to a B series. Though it is only 20 horses it compares more favorably with the B7800 etc. Don't go by horsepower, go by weight for comparisons. Kubota has, as a rule, always put more horsepower in their tractors in a specific weight class.
One of my neighbors has a 24 horse Kubota L. It dwarfs my B2410. It has more weight and more cubic inches. They are also reasonably priced, maybe look those over as well as the B series. the B series is intentionally made small and light so that they can be multifunctional tractors--weight is not good for mowing and most "estate" tractors do just that 60 percent of the time. Oh, I like my neighbors L but it it is clearly harder on his lawn, it will leave ruts if the lawn is not fully dry and it squashes the heck out of the grass.
Someday Kioti will have tractors similar to the B class Kubotas, I suspect the new Kitoti 20 horse is a step in that direction and it is a nice tractor, I feel equipped with turf tires it would be an OK unit for my uses. J

TresCrows · Apr 12, 2004

Let me say that again for clairity. The Kioti tractors I have seen are virtual copies of a Kubota L class tractor (not Grande L). They are in fact larger and heavier than B class Kubotas of the same horsepower (but smaller engine displacement).
Salesman like to find a nick in your armor and then drill into it. For you it seems to be weight. Kioti does not have a B class tractor yet in my opinion. When they do it will be smaller, lighter amd more manuverable than their current L class clones for the same reasons Kubota offers them. JD, NH, both offer tractors in the Kubota B class weight range as well as in the L class type range. That is because they have been in the buisness for years and have a full range of tractors--something Kioti does not yet have but is working towards. J

rbargeron · Apr 12, 2004

I'm always apt to chime in when the dicussion is about weight. My own is too high but that's another discussion.

Back in the early '80s when Kubota was pushing to penetrate the US market, the big M - series were massive and the smaller L series were a light design. The "middle sized" tractor market was dominated by Deere so Kubota introduced the L3 chassis. These were L-series tractors in name, but had the beef of the larger units. The castings were thick and sizes of everything were large - axles, gear housings, etc. They were intended to appeal to customers accustomed to massively-built conventional tractors. The weight translates directly into tractive force - a heavy tractor pulls harder. Heavy castings are only slightly more expensive to produce - foundry techniques can be less sophisticated, thickness tolerances can be large without compromising the strength.

But the market was shifting away from general farming and more toward the homeowner with acreage. Many buyers of tractors under say 50 hp want a rugged machine that won't break, but really don't care about huge pulling force. People doing more serious farming want 60 - 70 hp (or much more), they care about weight too.

With modern alloys and foundry practices, it is quite feasible to make the major tractor housings with the same strength and half the weight. In the long run that's good for the bottom line - less material to handle at all stages of manufacture, less mass to ship. But it requires a huge capital investment in tooling, methods and design. A company like Kubota has a future view and far-reaching business plan. A company like Mahindra chooses to buy components made more in line with the worldwide staus quo. Kioti is in the middle.

Which one is better? Whichever one you like best.

I'm always bragging about my L5450 - it has the best of both worlds. It was made when Kubota was trying to match the weight of John Deere farm tractors, but has Kubota precision and quality from top to bottom.

After all this blather, I do actually have a comment or two related to your question. Weight alone is not a deciding factor. If given a choice between high precision and low, choose high. If given a choice between an integrated design with all components well thought out, OR a collection of parts from multiple sources piled on a generic chassis, go for the former. The short of it is that Kubota is a class act.

As always, cheerful refund if info is judged to be bogus. No questions asked. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Take care, Dick B

JCA · Apr 12, 2004

rbargeron wrote:
( If given a choice between high precision and low, choose high. If given a choice between an integrated design with all components well thought out, OR a collection of parts from multiple sources piled on a generic chassis, go for the former. The short of it is that Kubota is a class act. )

Thanks to everyone who has commented, but especially to Dick, since, at the end of "all that blather" he answered (or at least gave his opinion on)--eloquently--exactly the question I was trying--less eloquently--to ask: whether Kubota's lighter weight is a result of careful engineering (coupled these tractors' intended use, as others commented)--or merely a less substantial design. For someone like me, with little knowledge and less experience, it's hard to tell the difference between elegant design and cost-cutting. Many thanks.

Jim

DanR67 · Apr 12, 2004

JCA -

Regarding "lightweight" - since I was primarily replacing a lawnmower ("garden tractor") - I didn't want to go "too big" (soil compaction). But I knew that I would have to - occassionally - move a big rock or two.

I've attached a pic of a rock that I pushed around with my B7610 (24 hp) - I can't pick it up - but I can move it around without *too* much difficulty. (You are looking at the rock "end on" - it's about twice as wide) That's why I went for the B7610 with the LA 352 loader.

If you're going to be *pushing rocks* / or doing heavy soil work (FEL or 3PH implements) - then heavier may be better. But if you are going to be doing generally lighter chores ("estate maintenance") - then something like my "lightweight" /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif B7610 is plenty tough too!

Good luck on your decision!

Dan

DAP · Apr 12, 2004

Thrice Raven .... Pricing on the CK25 and CK30 HST model Kioti trackers are available this week I'm told although becoming an owner of one if these will be difficult as the production run is very small (50/50) so I've read.

The point is ... they are in fact Kioti's answer to the B2410 and the B7800/B2910 respectively.

I do not know all of the detailed specs however. But these will be a fair matchup.

MessickFarmEqu · Apr 12, 2004

I think this thread covers the issue pretty well. To add to it, I have not heard one customer complain that their Kubota was too light. One the other hand, I have had others complain about their tractors being too heavy.

Kubota/NH/Deere does do a good job of matching weight of the tractor to the capability implements. People like to compare numbers, bigger is better kinda thing. I don't think there is much substance to it.

shoppintractors · Apr 12, 2004

trescrows writes,
 Don't go by horsepower, 

I agree. The horsepower is used for marketing purposes because the less informed buyer uses horsepower as the main measuring stick when comparing tractors.

DAP writes,
 I'm told although becoming an owner of one if these will be difficult as the production run is very small (50/50) so I've read.

This is merely the initial shipment and are expected to be snapped up. More CK25/30's are expected in subsequent shipments following the first 50/50.

 The point is ... they are in fact Kioti's answer to the B2410 and the B7800/B2910 respectively.

mmmmm......to clarify....the CK25 and CK30 are both on the same size frame with many deluxe features and would aline closer to a B2910. The B2410 alines closer to the CK20.

When people equate Kioti with the earlier model Kioti's my response is.....Have you checked out Kioti LATELY?

Don

5030 · Apr 12, 2004

Shoppintractors:

The only horsepower figure a prospective tractor purchaser should be concerned with is PTO horsepower. Flywheel or brake horsepower is of little use in comparing tractors.

Steve_Miller · Apr 12, 2004

Here's another question then, if the Kubota is built light for mowing or estate use,etc..., when your doing heavier work with FEL, backhoe,plowing, can the tractor handle extra weight for doing this work on a regular basis without putting extra wear and tear on bearings, seals,etc...? Not to hijack your post but I am curious as I'm considering a B7610 or TC24DA in the near future.

Steve

cckjone · Apr 13, 2004

( Which one is better? Whichever one you like best. )

Holy cow…did I actually read a cogent explanation concerning tractor weight? I must have landed in the wrong forum!

TresCrows · Apr 13, 2004

DAP, I have nothing against a Kioti. I think the new CK liue looks great. They seem to have the features of a B series but more the weight of an L series. Kind of a new niche to jump into maybe?. In any case, I saw the CK20 at a show here recently and was impressed. Overall, it is not quite as refined looking as the kubota but before you go off the deep end I thought they had a number of clever things on the tractor. It did not have a MMM mounted so I cannot judge that but I liked the tractor. I don't think I will trade my 2410 for it but if I were shopping today I certainly would give it a look see.
As has been noted, the B series Kubotas match light weight with powerful engines in a balanced package that is hard to beat. I don't think Kioti is quite there yet--my opinion. J

MikePA · Apr 13, 2004

Speaking to a Kioti dealer the other day,
This should have been your first clue /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif , a salesman was saying it.

...he pointed out how much heavier a 20-horse Kioti is than a 20-horse Kubota. 
If Kioti's were lighter than Kubotas, he would have been pointing that out. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Discussions about the weight of a tractor come up frequently on TBN, probably because weight, along with hp, is an easy statistic to understand and compare. However, IMHO, (1) It should be pretty far down the list of evaluation criteria and (2) You have to make sure the weights of the tractors you're comparing were all measured the same way. Pretty soon, you are off on a wild goose chase, trying to make sure the tractors are all measured the same, and you forget about the more important aspects of a tractor purchase.

The hp of the tractor to do what you want it to do, does it have the features you need, the features you want and, most importantly, how's the dealer for service and support after the sale.

MessickFarmEqu · Apr 13, 2004

"The point is ... they are in fact Kioti's answer to the B2410 and the B7800/B2910 respectively"

The CK's are nothing like the Kubota premier tractors. It lacks all the adjustments on the 3 point, does not have the wrap around operators platform, lacks the complex headlight and so forth. That's essencialy what your paying for with the 2410/2910. A comparision of the CK's HST models to the Kubota basic series is fair, but not more than that. People seem to like to compare unequal units to show a higher precieved value somtimes.

shoppintractors · Apr 13, 2004

Neil,

Your information is flawed........

 It lacks all the adjustments on the 3 point 

Standard CK25/30 Equipment as follows from Kioti.com
Telescopic stabilizer
Adjustable lift rod with bevel gear crank
3pt hitch speed adjuster
Telescopic 3 point hitch ends

The CK's are nothing like the Kubota premier tractors. A comparison of the CK's HST models to the Kubota basic series is fair, but not more than that. 

Far from the truth(IMO)....

model .................CK25/30 B2910
Hyd. pump output.......12.7.......9.5
3point lift @24"...........1764......1300

PTO hp
CK30 HST - 23.5
B2910 - 22

Sloped hood with curved arm loader has better visibility, higher lift capacity, higher maximum lift and higher breakout force. The CK's even have mud guards at the front of the operators platform with integrated safety lighting as well as a deluxe suspension style seat, tilt steering wheel and position control. .........see the attached picture.

Complete specs are available at www.kioti.com

 People seem to like to compare unequal units to show a higher precieved value somtimes.

hmmmmm.........

(Neil, sorry if this sounds like a rant but just trying to keep the information
accurate.......with no spin /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif.)

Don

TresCrows · Apr 13, 2004

OK, the Kioti is best, Kubota is going out of buisness because they make light, cheap tractors--whatever--next. Isn't there a Kioti forum for discussion of Kioti? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif, I thought this was Kubota forum, my mistake. It seems to me that an exhaustive discussion of Kioti features should take place there. If I am wrong, forgive me /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif. J