tractor won't start... help me troubleshoot it.

[Coyote machine]

Your battery was near dead, so you replaced it. Was it real old? How many hours on the tractor?
You had your starter tested off the tractor and it passed. You reinstalled it, but the symptoms are the same. You turn the key to crank position and don't even get a click. Has that changed since you began messing with it?
If so, how?
Now, if you haven't already you need to verify both your positive AND negative battery cables are able to handle the necessary current from the battery needed to start your tractor.
Cut into the sheathing that wraps the NEGATIVE battery cable, close to where it attaches to the frame.
See if there is any evidence of corrosion in between the cable strands. If there is, replace the entire cable. Do the same to the positive cable, while exercising due caution to not allow your knife/razor blade to contact anything except the sheathing on the cable so to prevent sparking /short.
Until you've ruled out the battery cables, you can't logically trace out the start circuit of your tractor through the ignition switch and starter relay and other devices like safety interlocks. One must start at the battery and work forward. All else is folly.

 

[k0ua]

Where do I begin? It always seems on these threads, that nearly everyone goes about trouble shooting backwards from the way I would tackle it. People take starters off and have them tested, when a starter is the VERY LAST likely culprit to a no start situation. Way down on the bottom of the list about number 30 for reasons a tractor wont crank.

And from your description we have a no crank situation not a no start situation. Sure the tractor won't start, but it cannot start unless it can crank first. Big difference. So why won't it crank? You multimeter is your friend, not your wrench. Leave the wrench at home and bring the multimeter. But first buy the service manual. Best money you will ever spend. Look at the electrical schematic as it pertains to the safety/cranking circuitry. If you stare at that for a while you will discover, that it is a miracle that the engine cranks at all. There are dozens of reasons for the tractor to NOT crank, and only one way that it will crank.

You mentioned that the lights were on bright, and did they dim or go out when you turned the key? If so, then you have a possible bad battery (high resistance internal to the battery). This is easily proven or disproven by a simple test with a multimeter on the terminals of the battery. If the battery voltage on the terminals drops below 10 volts, when attempting to crank you have a bad battery. In your case your battery you wrenched out instead of testing yourself with your multimeter tested "bad". Sure.. Now you have a new one. BUT the original battery would have likely cranked your tractor even if it was not in the best of shape. Now you spent $100 for a battery and maybe some money for a diagnostic check on your starter, and you tractor still won't crank the engine. Why won't it?

We must find out why by using the scientific method, of performing some simple tests (like that battery post test) to either rule in our out the battery, and them moving on to the battery clamp test to rule out a high resistance joint there and moving on to the battery ground/chassis connection and the starter post connection to rule out bad battery cables or bad connections, which several posters mentioned before.

So a bad battery is about number 15 in the likelihood of why your tractor won't crank. Way down on the list. The bad battery connections or bad cables are above that by several notches.
Remember me saying that it is a miracle that our tractors crank in the first place? Well I really meant that. There are sooo... many reasons for it not to crank.

Defective: Starter relay, starter relay wiring or connector, clutch switch or range switch, seat safety switch, PTO switch or associated wiring, HST treadle pedal centering switch, or in more modern tractors , electronic module failures or connections. At least 15 things maybe more in front of that battery that you replaced.

You can quickly eliminate things like starters by using a screwdriver to short across the starter main cable connection and the starter solenoid post (starter solenoid is inside the starter). Of course as others have pointed out, you take your life in your hands if you mess up and the tractor is in gear and runs over you. It is not likely to do that, but it has happened.

So step 1: get the service manual, and go over it with a fine toothed comb until you understand how the safety/cranking system works. Step 2: NEVER leave home without your multimeter. It is the absolute best tool in the box when it comes to any kind of electrical trouble shooting. But you do have to have a knowledge of the scientific method (divide and conquer) and how to operate and interpret the readings and form your hypothesis. Then you test that hypothesis.

So if all this sounds like "crap" and it didn't make sense to you, then my suggestion would be to see if you can get it up on a trailer and get it to the dealer or perhaps they make field service calls.

In any case, good luck with it, and if you want detailed explanations of any of my ravings, then holler back and I will try to help. I likely don't have the service manual for your tractor, so we would have to talk in generalities but I will try to help.

 

[Spanner]

We're on the same page of the same metaphorical book 'k0ua' and' Coyote machine'.

Just to add, before waving a knife blade at the battery cables, disconnect the -ve cable at the battery first. That way you avoid any sparks/injuries.

"Let's be careful out there" as Capt. Furillo famously said.

:wrench:

 

[areid]

We're on the same page of the same metaphorical book 'k0ua' and' Coyote machine'.

Just to add, before waving a knife blade at the battery cables, disconnect the -ve cable at the battery first. That way you avoid any sparks/injuries.

"Let's be careful out there" as Capt. Furillo famously said.

:wrench:

Im putting my money on an interlock, most likely the drive reverse pedal. I often need to tip my pedal slightly to allow the tractor to start. Another thing I intentionally do is put the tractor PTO lever into the on position when I shut the tractor down. If someone ever wanted to take it it will not start until that leaver is disengaged. Good luck.

 

[k0ua]

We're on the same page of the same metaphorical book 'k0ua' and' Coyote machine'.

Just to add, before waving a knife blade at the battery cables, disconnect the -ve cable at the battery first. That way you avoid any sparks/injuries.

"Let's be careful out there" as Capt. Furillo famously said.

:wrench:

I am guessing here that -ve equals negative vehicle earth, or what we would call negative ground? You Kiwi's and Aussies always have interesting names for things. :thumbsup:

 

[BX23S-1]

Im putting my money on an interlock, most likely the drive reverse pedal. I often need to tip my pedal slightly to allow the tractor to start. Another thing I intentionally do is put the tractor PTO lever into the on position when I shut the tractor down. If someone ever wanted to take it it will not start until that leaver is disengaged. Good luck.

Not a bad idea. I have a secret fuel shut off valve.
But if someone wants to steal it bad enough, they`ll steal it without worrying to much, snatch-n-grab, its gone.

 

[Coyote machine]

We're on the same page of the same metaphorical book 'k0ua' and' Coyote machine'.

Just to add, before waving a knife blade at the battery cables, disconnect the -ve cable at the battery first. That way you avoid any sparks/injuries.

"Let's be careful out there" as Capt. Furillo famously said.

:wrench:

For clarity, I wasn't suggesting hastily waving a knife blade at any battery cables. I did suggest carefully cutting enough sheathing, starting with the negative battery cable to determine if corrosion is present under the sheath/jacket of the cable. Then carefully doing same to the positive cable, exercising due caution, no waving, to see the condition of the positive cable. If no corrosion is found to be apparent in either cable it would be safe to move on to other things in the circuit that would keep the tractor's starting circuit from allowing the starter to crank; namely things like neutral safety switch, ignition switch or ignition/starter relay, seat or range selector or clutch switch, etc.

One step at a time, test and verify each with kOua's favorite tool, your VOM, (volt/Ohm/Multimeter), Oh, and don't forget a service manual's electrical circuit diagrams.

Now I agree with kOua's methods BUT I feel not everyone armed with a meter and service manual/wiring diagram is able to parse out what the diagram means or how to test various circuits. And for me at least, here lies the rub, and is why I think a LOT of misdiagnosed starters and batteries and switches, relays of all kinds get replaced by those who are desperate to get their tractor/car/truck back up and running. Electrical troubleshooting for someone with training and experience is not difficult, but for the average DIYer it can be a daunting task.

Having said the above, if one brings the questions they have here to TBN they can usually get the guidance needed to muddle through and save some dough doing so, and have a better chance of repairing or replacing what the actual problem is INSTEAD of hit and miss guesswork.

Guesswork is like betting against the house at a casino; one is bound to loose more often than win.
So if one wants to win the electrical troubleshooting game one must have certain tools; multimeter, wiring diagram AND some understanding of how electrical circuits work. The last tool is what I believe is missing for most who are trying to figure out why something like a tractor won't start. As stated already one needs to determine if the tractor won't start, WHY it won't start. Is it because the starter doesn't crank the engine over when the key is turned all the way to crank position? If so, that doesn't lead to concluding the starter is at fault. It does lead one to find out which of numerous items may be keeping the starter from cranking when the key is turned. And so on, one step at a time....

 

[BX23S-1]

Absolutely Coyote, proper procedures AND safety, is never practiced enough. This could be something as simple as an ignition switch, like it was on my john deere. None of us are there, to actually see if the proper things are being checked or not, so here we sit, playing armchair diagnostics. How do we even know what kind of experience the OP has. I`m guessing not a lot... which is no way his fault. Likely just the average guy trying to save a few bucks by not taking the tractor to someone to get it diagnosed & repaired properly. I`ll bet its something very simple... its likely just getting over looked possibly... or the guy just simply has no time to thoroughly figure it out.

 

[k0ua]

You see, I blame it all on the school system. We teach kids in school at a minimum for 12 years. We teach them a lot of things, but why in the heck couldn't we devote a week in 8th grade to basic electrical principals and troubleshooting? Sure would save a guy a heck of a lot of money in their lifetime wouldn't it? why could this not be done in 8th or 9th grade science?

You know simple stuff like the special relationship of voltage, current and resistance that Ohm's law so eloquently defines. Or how about a day of hands on experience with some batteries, wire and resistors and that old trusty VOM in every students hands? Think of the lasting impression it would leave.

I do believe I could be talked into working up the curriculum for a few days course. Even if it was one day, I could some justice to it. But no, I know it will never happen. Too many other "important" things to teach a child. You can't teach them something practical that they could use for the rest of their lives... Just dreaming...

 

[BX23S-1]

You see, I blame it all on the school system. We teach kids in school at a minimum for 12 years. We teach them a lot of things, but why in the heck couldn't we devote a week in 8th grade to basic electrical principals and troubleshooting? Sure would save a guy a heck of a lot of money in their lifetime wouldn't it? why could this not be done in 8th or 9th grade science?

You know simple stuff like the special relationship of voltage, current and resistance that Ohm's law so eloquently defines. Or how about a day of hands on experience with some batteries, wire and resistors and that old trusty VOM in every students hands? Think of the lasting impression it would leave.

I do believe I could be talked into working up the curriculum for a few days course. Even if it was one day, I could some justice to it. But no, I know it will never happen. Too many other "important" things to teach a child. You can't teach them something practical that they could use for the rest of their lives... Just dreaming...

Well Jim,
many many MANY moons ago, and i do mean MANY, thats what was taught when i went to school. It helped set me up for the future course of my life. All they can teach kids today is liberalism and beat somebody down for their next free handout. What happened to the days when it was a handup and not a handout. Now its just hands-up, hand-outs.

As simple as a 12 volt system is, it dosent get any easier. Power starts somewhere, and ends somewhere. The very first place you start, is the power source. Then follow it until you find an open, and thats where your problem ends up being. Like others have said in here, you start at your power source... i totally agree.

I use to be a instructor for a large auto maker. I taught technicians diagnostics. Even 30yrs ago when i was teaching, more than half the class didnt make it. If i were still teaching today, 1 out of 1,000 people might make it. Not good odds... kids are getting dumber by the day. There is no hope for them. These days, i`m just hangin on for my last ride in life.

I keep hoping that the OP comes back with the problem found & fixed.

 

[Spanner]

I am guessing here that -ve equals negative vehicle earth, or what we would call negative ground? You Kiwi's and Aussies always have interesting names for things. :thumbsup:

Yes,

-ve = Negative and +ve means Positive to us.

It follows the symbols moulded into the top of the battery ( - & + )

You have to remain aware that some very old vehicles/machines are +ve Earth sytems so referencing the polarity of the cable has more clarity than just saying the Ground/Earth.

You guys say "Ground" we say "Earth". Hood/Bonnet. Fender/Mudguard etc. I try to write Americanese when I can. (But I like our British heritage).

For "Coyote" I was just saying, if you disconnect the Earth cable no sparks can occur. If he slips with the knife he could cut a finger, drop the knife, short the +ve battery cable he's cutting into. No issue if the Earth is disconnected.

Regards,
:wrench:

 

[Egon]

Mike, using booster cables go directly from your truck battery to the starter. Ground can be anywhere on the tractor frame. Tap the positive on the red starter lead. The starter should click or make an attemp to turn over. If the starter turns the engine may start with the key in the on position. If so let it warm up and then shut it down and try a normal start. If starter does not turn get a rag, bright flashlight, electrical cleaner and crawl around underneath checking all the wires and connectors. Clean the connectors and oil up all the switch activators. Do the same for the fuzes and relays. ( this could be considered yearly maintenance ) your inspection may turn up something. If that does not work it's time for the meter and procedures of which I'm not familiar with.

Under normal conditions can you hear the fuel solenoid click on turning the key? If it does not click one of the safety/position switches may be the problem?

 

[Spanner]

Be very careful about giving out this kind of advice:

Mike, using booster cables go directly from your truck battery to the starter. Ground can be anywhere on the tractor frame. Tap the positive on the red starter lead. The starter should click or make an attemp to turn over. If the starter turns the engine may start with the key in the on position. If so let it warm up and then shut it down and try a normal start. If starter does not turn get a rag, bright flashlight, electrical cleaner and crawl around underneath checking all the wires and connectors. Clean the connectors and oil up all the switch activators. Do the same for the fuzes and relays. ( this could be considered yearly maintenance ) your inspection may turn up something. If that does not work it's time for the meter and procedures of which I'm not familiar with.

Under normal conditions can you hear the fuel solenoid click on turning the key? If it does not click one of the safety/position switches may be the problem?

... especially in the litigious climate of the USA. If the engine did start-up and the tractor happened to move forward it could trap the unwary and cause some injury (or worse).
Always ensure there is someone (preferably you) in the drivers seat when attempting to start a tractor by any means. One foot on the clutch, park brake engaged etc.

Booster (Jumper) Cables are for jumping battery-to-battery. Not for by-passing all safety interlock circuitry imo.

Safety first, and second.

Regards,
:wrench:

 

[Egon]

Well; call it a sound meter instead of a VOM meter

 

[MikeS_in_GA]

So many helpful tips... so little time!

Battery was 6 months past its warranty. It failed with flying colors. I've had to replace the battery every 2 years since I bought the tractor. Tractor supply Co is about the only option for batteries around here that I have found. Anyhow...

So a new battery was installed. The tractor has 990 hours on it. It is a 1996 model. I pulled the starter as that is right there on the side and super easy to do. I took automotive classes in high school, but I could never take the electrical classes due to scheduling conflicts. So I am way more comfortable with a wrench than I am a VOM.

As someone else pointed out, I don't have a no start problem, I have a no crank problem. There is no 'click' of the starter when I turn the key. The lights do not dim - but they are LED and draw very little power. I had a distant relative die from using the screwdriver trick on the starter to fire up an old tractor. I've never done it, nor have I ever seen it done.

I have moved the range shifter multiple times and the pto lever as well. No change. It does act as though it is in gear or with the PTO on. I haven't been able to get to the switches pertaining to those yet.

I found a wire under the hood that was chewed off - that was going to a factory headlight, and another going to one of the old rear lights. There was a big rat under the hood one day, and the dog made quick work of it. I'm also considering that there may be more damage to the wires that I haven't found.

I was out again this week to look at it, but with the kids along and wanting to fish at the other end of the property, my tractor work time was approximately 3 minutes. lol

The VOM gave a reading of ~13v from the new battery, so it didn't drain in the past few days. The started still won't click.

I unhooked the bush hog, jacked up the loader, and pulled it out of the shed and into the open. I'm very close to calling the dealer and having them come get it, so I got the tractor ready for that if I choose to go that route. Every week that I am playing mechanic, is another week behind I am getting out there. I just have a feeling that a real mechanic would diagnose and fix this in very short order. At some point I have to factor in the time vs convenience vs educating myself on my tractor. On the flip side... now I have more room to work on it

Thanks for all of your help on this!!!

 

[areid]

One last thing I can think of. When my B3030 was delivered I noticed that there was a fuse in the bag with the manual. I was told this is the main fuel fuse, not sure but it could be your issue. Perhaps it's another interlock.

 

[Coyote machine]

It sounds like you have a drain on your battery or very seldom use of teh tractor, either of which could drain a battery down. Having to replace one every two years is not normal.

To do the starter test, (to get it to crank over the engine, to see if the tractor will start this way) have someone sitting in the tractor's seat with a foot on the brake and the key OFF. Take a jumper wire from the post at the starter which comes from the battery, ( the positive cable) and touch the jumper to the small terminal on top of the solenoid. This should crank the battery IF and when you have your assistant put the ignition key in the ON position. IF the starter engages and the engine cranks over and starts you know the engine will start.

Now, assuming the engine did crank over, you have to go back and find where the starting circuit is dropping off. This means there is an open somewhere in the path from the chassis ground through the battery and on to the ignition switch and starter relay, seat switch, range selector switch, or any other safety device meant to keep the tractor from starting in gear, with the PTO on, etc.

But at least you know once you find where the circuit stops being a straight line path to the starter you have narrowed it down, and know once you find the open you will then be able to repair the circuit or component in the circuit which is causing the starter to not crank the engine.

Alternative save: take it to dealer and pay big $, but likely get it fixed sooner. Your choice.

 

[MikeS_in_GA]

Going out tomorrow. No helper, but I will see what I can do.

 

[k0ua]

I am confident you are not going to hurt yourself by letting the tractor run over you with your mechanical background. It is sad you did not get some electrical foundation under you in your "formative years". You may very well be suffering from the "rat chewed" syndrome since you have already found some damage. The rodents are not our friends. Even if you do jump the starter as coyote outlined so well, and you make the tractor run, what are you going to do then? The troubleshooting and wire tracing is then all still up to you. Can you do it? Do you want to do it?

Yes a person with a wiring diagram (schematic) and a VOM could likely fix your problem in short order.
Yes, I am still on my original battery and the battery is date coded 2010, so 7 years. But battery's vary, and some don't last long, and others last a long time. One key to making them last is a trickle charger when not in use. I use the little solar 1.5 watt trickle chargers and they sure have worked for me.

 

[MikeS_in_GA]

I have been using a hard wired trickle battery charger for a couple years. Batteries with an 18 month warranty, last about 25 months for me. I wish I could get a long lasting battery!

My local Kubota dealer is busy and can't do anything until Friday at the earliest. So I have tomorrow to give it another look. They did ask about the fuse by the starter. I've never noticed that, so I will look for it tomorrow.