Trailer Welders Certification

[AlanB]

If the guy is in the salvage business, and says all it needs is a starter motor to make it work, I would tell him, OK, I got $100 for you to put on the starter motor......

Kind of like the deals I see where folks tell the people buying bikes etc. Oh, just $15 worth of parts and it will be worth tons more. If that was the case, they would have done it.

I think you got a great deal, but I think the line about the starter motor is VERY suspect.

That one on Ebay looks good though.

 

[patrick_g]

Starter motors are quite powerful and can most likely power a hydraulic pump in this application. My concern is not so much whether or not it can put out the requisite power but if it can put out the requisite power long enough. Most stuff written regarding cranking an engine warn you to not exceed a relatively brief period like 30 sec and to "rest" the starter for so many minutes between attempts.

I would not have the patience to lift the load a fraction of the way and then wait a few min to lift it another portion. It could easily take 3 or more cycles of lift and wait to get a complete dump and that could easily take 15 min to be safe and not burn out the motor. This is speculation on my part. Reality trumps speculation so if a starter motor works and lasts it is a good solution.

Pat

 

[AlanB]

Typing thing,

How to get across what I am trying to say.

I am picturing this system as a hyd cylinder with two hoses hanging off from it (or maybe only one) The controls, pump, resovoir etc would all be on the truck that it came off from. There would be a BUNCH of stuff missing besides a starter motor to make it work.

I think my system uses a Ford starter motor to operate my trailer. (I have never replaced it, but that is what it looks like too me) But there is a tank, plumbing, couple solenoids etc, that come as a unit to make that thing function. I am guessing they are not there. (but it is just that, a guess).

Either way, a scissor lift dump is a nice thing to have, just need to sort out what additional pieces are needed to make it practical.

At least on mine, the starter motor powers it just fine up and down, and I believe them too be pretty much the industry stanadard for dump trailers.

 

[BTDT]

Typing thing,

How to get across what I am trying to say.

I am picturing this system as a hyd cylinder with two hoses hanging off from it (or maybe only one) The controls, pump, resovoir etc would all be on the truck that it came off from. There would be a BUNCH of stuff missing besides a starter motor to make it work.

I think my system uses a Ford starter motor to operate my trailer. (I have never replaced it, but that is what it looks like too me) But there is a tank, plumbing, couple solenoids etc, that come as a unit to make that thing function. I am guessing they are not there. (but it is just that, a guess).

Either way, a scissor lift dump is a nice thing to have, just need to sort out what additional pieces are needed to make it practical.

At least on mine, the starter motor powers it just fine up and down, and I believe them too be pretty much the industry stanadard for dump trailers.

Isn't this what your talking about? Sorry for the bad photo, but I think W.W. Grainger sells them.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...2d1165699142-lift-rake-12v-hydraulic-pump.pdf

 

[gemini5362]

Actually allan all the parts that you mention are on the trailer or at least they were. The hydraulic power supply and the switching valve are all in one unit and it is connected to the ram with two hoses. Now as to why I say they were. It is almost prophetic that I started this thread. When I started it I was thinking about some of the people that talk about modifying trailers or buying them and I was wondering about the certification. Now let me tell you what happened today. I went to get the trailer, like I said it is a homemade trailer that the owner took a dump bed off of and put it on the trailer. I checked to make sure how the hydraulic pump hooked up to a motor and made sure everything was there but the motor. I hooked the trailer up and started for home. I went about 80 out of the 120 miles I had to go and everything was great the trailer pulled well it was a nice size to match what I wanted etc. I heard a loud noise and looked in my rear view mirror and saw the axle flying through the air. The previous owner had not did a very good job attaching the axles to the trailer and his weld broke. I was very fortunate. I was on a major highway and when the axle broke loose there were no cars in sight. No one behind me or no one coming towards me. The axle hit the ground and I stopped the pickup and the trailer frame over on the shoulder. I got out to get the axle and it had started rolling down a hill towards me. I realized that I did not want to try to stop it because it was rolling probably 20 or 30 miles an hour so I dodged it and watched it change directions and roll accross the highway. The axle started up a small hill and lost momentum. I ran up to it and got it stopped before it could roll down again. A car stopped and two young men helped me to roll it back to the trailer and lift it inside of it. I looked to see what had been damaged and noticed the hydraulic pump gone. It was sitting on the front of the trailer but underneath the frame. I went back up the road and found it. The mounting brackets were gone but it actually seemed to hold up ok. I left the trailer where it was and went to a friends house that was about 20 miles from where it broke. We went back with a jack and some chains. We jacked up the trailer and set the axles underneath it. We ran a chain around the axle and put a bolt through the chain holding it around the axle. We ran one end to the end of the trailer and the other end to the front of the trailer. We used a load binder to tighten it down. We did the same thing on the other side. We hooked the trailer back up and then
drove slowly 10-20 mph back to his house. It is amazing the nice people you can meet when you drive slowly. Especially the nice ones with blue lights on the top of the car. We got stopped twice on the way to his house. Luckily they took pity on us and did not give us a ticket. My friend that the trailer is at his house is an expert welder so we will go over the trailer and fix the welds and redo the way it was attached. I still believe the hydraulic pump will work if it worked before. I will give more details as we get things fixed.

 

[gemini5362]

Starter motors are quite powerful and can most likely power a hydraulic pump in this application. My concern is not so much whether or not it can put out the requisite power but if it can put out the requisite power long enough. Most stuff written regarding cranking an engine warn you to not exceed a relatively brief period like 30 sec and to "rest" the starter for so many minutes between attempts.

I would not have the patience to lift the load a fraction of the way and then wait a few min to lift it another portion. It could easily take 3 or more cycles of lift and wait to get a complete dump and that could easily take 15 min to be safe and not burn out the motor. This is speculation on my part. Reality trumps speculation so if a starter motor works and lasts it is a good solution.

Pat

My friend that I talk about spent a lot of years in the testing department of Baldor motors and is pretty much an expert in motors. We agree that a starter motor turning a hydraulic pump is a lot less of a load than trying to turn over a motor against the compression it
has. Even if it does burn it up I wont be using it on a regular basis and starters are pretty easy to get parts for or other starters. Actually I could go to Autozone and get a starter with a lifetime guarantee and not worry about it again. We will see what happens I will probably try to adapt the starter motor to run with the power supply while I am waiting to get time to fix the broken welds on the axle.

 

[gemini5362]

Actually allan all the parts that you mention are on the trailer or at least they were. The hydraulic power supply and the switching valve are all in one unit and it is connected to the ram with two hoses. Now as to why I say they were. It is almost prophetic that I started this thread. When I started it I was thinking about some of the people that talk about modifying trailers or buying them and I was wondering about the certification. Now let me tell you what happened today. I went to get the trailer, like I said it is a homemade trailer that the owner took a dump bed off of and put it on the trailer. I checked to make sure how the hydraulic pump hooked up to a motor and made sure everything was there but the motor. I hooked the trailer up and started for home. I went about 80 out of the 120 miles I had to go and everything was great the trailer pulled well it was a nice size to match what I wanted etc. I heard a loud noise and looked in my rear view mirror and saw the axle flying through the air. The previous owner had not did a very good job attaching the axles to the trailer and his weld broke. I was very fortunate. I was on a major highway and when the axle broke loose there were no cars in sight. No one behind me or no one coming towards me. The axle hit the ground and I stopped the pickup and the trailer frame over on the shoulder. I got out to get the axle and it had started rolling down a hill towards me. I realized that I did not want to try to stop it because it was rolling probably 20 or 30 miles an hour so I dodged it and watched it change directions and roll accross the highway. The axle started up a small hill and lost momentum. I ran up to it and got it stopped before it could roll down again. A car stopped and two young men helped me to roll it back to the trailer and lift it inside of it. I looked to see what had been damaged and noticed the hydraulic pump gone. It was sitting on the front of the trailer but underneath the frame. I went back up the road and found it. The mounting brackets were gone but it actually seemed to hold up ok. I left the trailer where it was and went to a friends house that was about 20 miles from where it broke. We went back with a jack and some chains. We jacked up the trailer and set the axles underneath it. We ran a chain around the axle and put a bolt through the chain holding it around the axle. We ran one end to the end of the trailer and the other end to the front of the trailer. We used a load binder to tighten it down. We did the same thing on the other side. We hooked the trailer back up and then
drove slowly 10-20 mph back to his house. It is amazing the nice people you can meet when you drive slowly. Especially the nice ones with blue lights on the top of the car. We got stopped twice on the way to his house. Luckily they took pity on us and did not give us a ticket. My friend that the trailer is at his house is an expert welder so we will go over the trailer and fix the welds and redo the way it was attached. I still believe the hydraulic pump will work if it worked before. I will give more details as we get things fixed.

 

[patrick_g]

You are having way too much fun. You may exceed your quota early in the period and not receive another allocation till next period. How boring that will be.

Glad there was no serious loss of material or worse!!!

YIKES!!!! So, are you psychic, or what? Move over Chris Angel.

Serious part: Yeah, I agree about the load being less and life being longer but have no personal experience and would just try it and see. If it works you are a great shirtsleeve engineer and if it fails you just admit it was a long shot that was fun to try and go to plan B.

What a horror story your trip could have been. Stuff like that gets innocent people killed. Can't say the junk yard guy actually knew it was dangerous as he may have been unaware just how poor his welds were.

Our local trailer manufacturer was working in the oil fields when there was a big industry slowdown/collapse. He opened an independent welding shop and was NOT getting enough business to pay rent (too many armatures who think they are welders) and started building a few trailers to stay busy and make a few $ while waiting to establish his welding business.

He now is the owner of a nice little trailer manufacturing operation with about a dozen employees and 30 years of track record. They build good trailers at a good price.

holttrailers.com Folks drive quite a ways to buy from him because of reputation, quality, and price. I have bought two from him and have been very pleased.
It is one of the Holt trailers to which I hope to add a removable dump box accessory as well as a removable stock trailer enclosure.

Pat

 

[gemini5362]

Pat thanks for the kind words. I was a bit upset about the trailer not making it home before it broke but I kept reminding myself how fortunate I was in the timeing. Absolutely no one got hurt or was even in the way to get scared. It was a nice day and normally the motorcycle riders are out enjoying it but the forecast was for severe weather and it was extremely windy. If a motorcyclist had been behind me the axle would have hit them right in the upper body and they probably would have been killed. The road that I was on when it happened is a major highway but not an interstate. If It had lasted another 30 miles I would have been on the interstate and that would have been much more of a danger. If I had not found it was bad while I was working on the hydraulics. I would have filled it with several ton of gravel and then when it broke that would have been a very difficult situation to deal with.

I am going to try the starter motor. It has a few things going for that Idea.
the main thing being that the starter motor is free. My friend where the trailer is has a bunch of starters he has salvaged over the years so we will see what we can do about making an adapter. Like you very correctly pointed out. If it works then it is great and if it doesnt then it was an interesting thing to try.

 

[AlanB]

Man Gem, while it may not feel like it at the moment (although it sounds like you realize it) man, were you lucky. Glad you were able to get it sorted and home (or to a good shop I guess)

I guess I misunderstood, I thought this bed had come off a truck with a PTO which would have had a very different type system. Sounds like you are in luck.

I spent my day making my spreading tailgate into barn doors. Grabbed a couple pictures so I will post on a seperate thread.

Thank goodness nobody got hurt.