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Trailer Welders Certification
- Thread starter gemini5362
- Start date
- Views: 17271
OP
gemini5362
Veteran Member
Thingy that is a good question. The truth is that I have been looking at this type of trailer for a while and I have a pretty good idea what they go for. A working trailer of this type on ebay would have run 2500 at least plus the cost of going to get it. In todays diesel prices that adds up fast. This trailer is only about 100 miles from me so it is just a tank of diesel to get it. I am not a great welder but I have done some welding. I made a pair of ramps for my flatbed trailer. The ramps are 5 foot long and 3 foot wide and I have over a 100.00 in steel. To me it appeared like the steel to make a trailer like the one I bought would have cost me more than the 950.00 I paid for it plus I would have had to buy an axle and a cylinder and the hydraulics for it. I figured that the trailer even if the hydraulics and the cylinder does not work was worth more than I paid for it. If they work then I got a really good bargain. I have done a little bit of hydraulic work at least enough to have a working knowledge of some of the terms. My old job was at a steel mill and they used big hydraulic systems there and I helped the mechanics on them sometimes. If I need to I could take the cylinder over to one of their mechanics and get them to help me rebuild it. I was hoping someone here might have had some experience with the Heil dump beds and could give me some tips on it.
patrick_g
Elite Member
There are many possibilities, not just a single right way to do this. A starter motor can have the power to do the job but isn't designed to run very long at a time and can easily overheat. You might have to pace yourself.
The 10 wheel dumps that I have driven never had power down, just lift. Gravity brings it back down when you change the valve to drain the ram.
I have a 12,000 lb gross weight util trailer to which I am going to add a dump box accessory (removable.) This is a part of my Swill Army Trailer project. I want a stock trailer accessory as well as a dump trailer accessory.
Anyway, a decent battery mounted at the trailer, probably by the hydraulic tank, pump, etc. is the way to go. You can connect a hot wire from the trailer cable to charge the battery when the trailer is connected. If you don't have a relay in your system you should add one. They make relays intended for this purpose which don't overheat when energized for hours and hours. The purpose of the relay is to pass power to the trailer and its battery when the engine of your tow vehicle is running but to disconnect when you turn the key off. This way you will not run down the starting battery of your truck but you will get some charging of the hydraulic pumping battery between lifts if yo have your truck engine running. This sure helps keep the hydraulic battery charged especially if you drive very far between loading and unloading.
You just need a valve to direct the fluid to the ram when you want to lift and from the ram to the reservoir when you want gravity to lower the box back down.
Pat
The 10 wheel dumps that I have driven never had power down, just lift. Gravity brings it back down when you change the valve to drain the ram.
I have a 12,000 lb gross weight util trailer to which I am going to add a dump box accessory (removable.) This is a part of my Swill Army Trailer project. I want a stock trailer accessory as well as a dump trailer accessory.
Anyway, a decent battery mounted at the trailer, probably by the hydraulic tank, pump, etc. is the way to go. You can connect a hot wire from the trailer cable to charge the battery when the trailer is connected. If you don't have a relay in your system you should add one. They make relays intended for this purpose which don't overheat when energized for hours and hours. The purpose of the relay is to pass power to the trailer and its battery when the engine of your tow vehicle is running but to disconnect when you turn the key off. This way you will not run down the starting battery of your truck but you will get some charging of the hydraulic pumping battery between lifts if yo have your truck engine running. This sure helps keep the hydraulic battery charged especially if you drive very far between loading and unloading.
You just need a valve to direct the fluid to the ram when you want to lift and from the ram to the reservoir when you want gravity to lower the box back down.
Pat
OP
gemini5362
Veteran Member
Thank you pat. The owner told me that the ram itself is the resevoir. I dont know enough to know whether that is true or not. I am anxious to go pick it up but I cant do that until next saturday. I do not know if my truck has a relay on the wire to charge the battery or not. I do know it has a wire in the 7 pin plug for that purpose. Now that you have mentioned it I will see if that wire is hot when the key is turned off.
Stimw
Elite Member
There are different ways that a PTO dump are set up. Yours sounds like the kind that has a valve somewhere that is controled with a remote lever that pushes and pulls to work. You engage the PTO in the truck then work the valve with a lever in the cab.
Hooking a starter to it probably won't be worth the trouble. A PTO is run off of an engine with usually more than 100 hp.
They sell 12volt power units that are used for liftgates, snowplows and such. I would reccomend a gas engine and a log splitter type pump. Either one will be slow because of the reduced volume of oil.
As for the cylinder, if it's not pitted you should be able to polish it. A lot of those cylinders just used graphite/rope packing which can be tightened or replaced if leaking.
Hooking a starter to it probably won't be worth the trouble. A PTO is run off of an engine with usually more than 100 hp.
They sell 12volt power units that are used for liftgates, snowplows and such. I would reccomend a gas engine and a log splitter type pump. Either one will be slow because of the reduced volume of oil.
As for the cylinder, if it's not pitted you should be able to polish it. A lot of those cylinders just used graphite/rope packing which can be tightened or replaced if leaking.
OP
gemini5362
Veteran Member
STIMW Thank you for the advice. I am not as worried about the hydraulic pump as i am the cylinder. I have remote hydraulics on my tractor and if I need to I will just use my pickup to haul the loaded trailer home then I will use my tractor hydraulics to dump it.
I am curious though. Even though the hydraulics is hooked to an engine through a pto on a dump truck, does it really take 100 hp to pump that. I know that you can get a pretty good sized dump trailer that runs off of a small hydraulic pump and a 12 volt battery. Is there something I am not understanding about the hydraulic pumps on this type of dump bed ?
I am curious though. Even though the hydraulics is hooked to an engine through a pto on a dump truck, does it really take 100 hp to pump that. I know that you can get a pretty good sized dump trailer that runs off of a small hydraulic pump and a 12 volt battery. Is there something I am not understanding about the hydraulic pumps on this type of dump bed ?
Stimw
Elite Member
While it dosen't take 100 hp to run the hyd pump, when you watch a dump truck raise the bed without much effort it is because of the high hp. A smaller hp pump system would take longer.
You could use your tractor PTO and a driveshaft to the pump, like hooking up a brush cutter or other implement. Would be simple way to go.
Pitting is what you have to worry about on the cylinder, pitting will keep it from sealing. Minor surface rust might polish off good enough to alow it to seal.
You could use your tractor PTO and a driveshaft to the pump, like hooking up a brush cutter or other implement. Would be simple way to go.
Pitting is what you have to worry about on the cylinder, pitting will keep it from sealing. Minor surface rust might polish off good enough to alow it to seal.
patrick_g
Elite Member
Using the ram for a tank? Where is the hydraulic fluid when the ram is empty? IF you run it off a tractor the tractor's hydraulics will supply and recover the fluid. If you use an electric motor driven pump or PTO you need an accumulator tank.
I'd personally not try to involve my tractor hydraulics and try to observe KISS. I'd prefer to put a battery, motor, and pump in a box mounted on the front of the trailer. Next on my personal list would be a gas engine driven pump like previously posted (splitter type arrangement.) If you could use a splitter too then this would be a great option as the same hydraulics could run the dump or the splitter. A good twofer.
Pat
I'd personally not try to involve my tractor hydraulics and try to observe KISS. I'd prefer to put a battery, motor, and pump in a box mounted on the front of the trailer. Next on my personal list would be a gas engine driven pump like previously posted (splitter type arrangement.) If you could use a splitter too then this would be a great option as the same hydraulics could run the dump or the splitter. A good twofer.
Pat
OP
gemini5362
Veteran Member
Patrick you bring up good points some of which had occured to me already. If I do decide to use the tractor hydraulics it will be after I have removed the ram and disasembled, cleaned and refurbish it. That is the only way I can think of that would stop me from having a worry about contamination in my tractor hydraulics. I wondered about the seller telling me that the ram held the resevoir for the hydraulics also. I do not know that much about those rams and was not sure that maybe it had a liquid storage resevoir built into the ram. Another suggestion that I have recieved was just to run the hydraulic pump that is there (providing that it works of course.) off of the power take off from the tractor. My 50 horse tractor should be able to spin the hydraulic pum pretty easily. and manufacturing a small driveshaft for that is pretty easy. For the moment since I cannot go and get it until Saturday I am just getting some ideas and suggestions in the what if category. I am hoping that the pump works and the ram works. If that is the case all I have to do is to come up with a dc motor to drive it. I might try the starter suggestion the seller made just to see if it works. I have several non used starters in my junk collection and my friend at work has a bunch. That would be the cheapest solution and making an adapter for the starter would be a fun project. ( I have free access to a lathe and a vertical mill and more important access to someone that knows how to use them.) I will post more on the trailer when I get it and see what I have got. In the meantime I really apreciate the suggestions everyone has been making
patrick_g
Elite Member
Gemini, It is YOUR PROJECT but I'll give you the advice I'd give a close friend... You are building in a repetitive hassle if you are going to road the trailer behind a truck and then have to go get a tractor to hook up the PTO. You'll be walking part of the time or requiring a second person as a driver. It will work, but it will be a PITA!
Lets say yo drive to quarry and get crusher run for the driveway. Now you are home with a load. Can you slowly drive down the drive tilting the dump a little more every few yards? Maybe if you drop the trailer and hitch up the tractor as tow vehicle and connect the PTO.
What if you use the tractor's FEL to load the trailer with dirt from a few different locations. Are you going to hitch-unhitch-hitch-unhitch or use the truck to move the trailer and the tractor for loading? Then when you are ready to go somewhere to dump the load you have to unhitch the truck and hook up the tractor.
I'm sure there may be some combination of operations where it might not be a big pain but if it were me I'd be trying to make it dump without using the tractor hydraulics.
What if you want to haul a load of gravel for a friend/customer. The friend/customer doesn't have a tractor. Now what do you do? Take your tractor to his location and park it, then go to the gravel pit, then to his place to hook up the tractor to dump and then take the trailer home and go back for the tractor.
It seems to me that effort spent in creating an inconvenient solution would be better redirected toward a SMOOTH solution. The $ shouldn't be that big and the convenience would be a very nice thing (and quite a time saver.)
Pat
Lets say yo drive to quarry and get crusher run for the driveway. Now you are home with a load. Can you slowly drive down the drive tilting the dump a little more every few yards? Maybe if you drop the trailer and hitch up the tractor as tow vehicle and connect the PTO.
What if you use the tractor's FEL to load the trailer with dirt from a few different locations. Are you going to hitch-unhitch-hitch-unhitch or use the truck to move the trailer and the tractor for loading? Then when you are ready to go somewhere to dump the load you have to unhitch the truck and hook up the tractor.
I'm sure there may be some combination of operations where it might not be a big pain but if it were me I'd be trying to make it dump without using the tractor hydraulics.
What if you want to haul a load of gravel for a friend/customer. The friend/customer doesn't have a tractor. Now what do you do? Take your tractor to his location and park it, then go to the gravel pit, then to his place to hook up the tractor to dump and then take the trailer home and go back for the tractor.
It seems to me that effort spent in creating an inconvenient solution would be better redirected toward a SMOOTH solution. The $ shouldn't be that big and the convenience would be a very nice thing (and quite a time saver.)
Pat
