Trenching on a Hill with Backhoe

CurlyDave · Jan 21, 2006

I have to dig trenches for water, power, phone and sewer about 600' long on a very rocky hillside. Average slope is 15% or ~ 8 or 9 degrees. All the trenches can be pretty much straight up, no real sidehill digging.

The John Deere sales guy came out to the property, looked at the earth and said he thought I would be much better off with the backhoe I have instead of buying a trencher attachment. Lots & lots of rocks.

Now the question becomes "what is the proper technique"?

Do I start at the bottom of the hill and trench up, or do I start at the top and trench down? I think I would have more stability with the backhoe on the uphill side of the tractor, so going up would be preferred, but I would like someone with real-life experience to help me out.

A second question would be: how many of these utilities can go in a common trench? I recognize that if I ever have to dig them up, I am going to break every line in the trench. Sewer is already going to a septic tank in a different area, but it would be really nice to get water on the bottom, electric and then phone nearer the surface in one trench.

How far apart do phone & electric have to be to avoid electrical interference?

Richard · Jan 21, 2006

I presume you mean you are trying to trench UP the hill as opposed to across it.

That said, I'd drive to the top of the hill (with a bucket of dirt in my loader bucket for extra "planting" weight) and I'd trench while going down the hill.

Perhaps it doesn't matter but I did mine that way. The dirt in the loader really helps plant me to the ground a lot more than an empty bucket.

I'll let others opine on your other points.

Good luck with it & be slow & safe!

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Richard · Jan 21, 2006

To sort of clarify something, no matter WHICH way I dug my trench, I'd have the hoe on the UPHILL side.

You could back up & dig, or start on top & drive forward (down) and dig. To me, going downhill was the way, but either way, I'd keep the hoe on the high side. (sorry if I missed that point)

JSUnlimited · Jan 21, 2006

dfleary,

When building my home, all of the utilities came down to the house from the street. I had the same hill and distance that you probably have.....here is what I went through.

The electric company said I could dig my own trench but would have to pay for conduit for them to pull wire through. It was cheaper for me to have one of thier subs do it. Since one of thier subs did, no conduit was needed. They also put in the same trench with the electric, the phone and CATV wire at no additional cost. I have no interference with the phone or cable service.

The gas company wanted their line in a separate trench with a tracer wire. They did not care who put it in, I just had to have a licensed plumber fab-up the meter base at the house and put a tag there saying everything was good. The gas company came after that and hooked up at the street. 1" line was what they wanted.

Water company really could have cared less, but by process of elmination.....It has its own trench. 3/4" line was the only thing they wanted.

Luckily, all 3 of the trenches run parallel to each other all the way to the house so nothing crosses each other.

As far as running the BH, when possible I always try to start at the top of the hill with the BH topside and work my way down the hill verses trying to pull the dirt up hill and out of the hole.

keeney · Jan 21, 2006

If you decide to try the trencher, it will work better starting at the top of the hill. The weight of the machine will then keep it engaged against the end of the trench being cut.

Trying to run a trencher up hill, you may run into issues getting enough traction.

- Rick

escavader · Jan 21, 2006

just a thought,id dig down,so you can put the front of your bucket down,to help keep you from rolling accidently.It also will take a little of the strain off your down riggers
ALAN

LarryRB · Jan 21, 2006

escavator os correct. you start at the top and go dwon. You also use front bucket curled and run in the ground as a spade to hold you back. As far as utilities, I;ve doen thousands of feet of it... It depends on what your area utilities demand... Here, three separate schedule 40 pipes, 4 ft down or more, snad layer at bottom, usually 6" and another 6" of sand over the pipes, then fill. Electric wants 4" conduit, cable 1 3/4 and phone usually follows cable but not always.. Down turns from poles now must be steel. no more sch 40 down turns..

QRTRHRS · Jan 21, 2006

I have dug ditches on some pretty steep inclines by digging from the top down. To move forward, I keep the hoe in the ditch, lift the bucket and outriggers only an inch or so and use the hoe to let the machine drift forward however much I want it to. If you are not comfortable doing this and choose to sit in the drivers seat, you may still want to keep the hoe in the ditch to act as an anchor especially if you can reach the controls to release the pressure as needed. Regardless, be very careful.

I would check with the local codes and utility companies on all your utiility requirements. I would not want everything in one ditch nor would I want water below sewer. I think phone and electric need to be at least 12 inches if not 24 inches apart. PVC pipe is cheap once it is in the ground. You can easily upgrade cables in the future.

By the way, here is a trick to get your lines pulled through. Glue and lay in your pipe, backfill, etc. Then take a light string and tie it onto a plastic shopping bag. Feed the line in while someone sucks on the other end with a shop vac. The vac will pull that bag/line through slicker than whatever. Tie the lighter line onto heavier line or your cable. Your power company may desire a specific type of line. Mine wants the incremented flat tape made by companies such as Greenlee.

Egon · Jan 22, 2006

You also use front bucket curled and run in the ground as a spade to hold you back.

This should be standard procedure when doing any hoe work.

I'd also sugest the trench line surface area be leveled to an even grade prior to starting the hoe work. Make it a little easier to maintain grade and set up the hoe.

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MarkV · Jan 22, 2006

As a side note, after backfilling your trenches half way roll out some of that yellow caution tape you see at construction sites. In the future if someone is digging in that area they will pull up the tape before hitting your services. May never be used but could save a big repair bill and is cheap insurance.

MarkV

EddieWalker · Jan 22, 2006

I agree with all the other posters. Start at the top of the hill and work your way down.

It's also allot better to start at the end of the run and work your way to the end in one run. Makes for a cleaner dig and takes less time overall.

Before you dig, be sure you know how your going to backfill the hole again. If the trench is along a road, will you be digging on the side of it? Where will the spoils pile go? On the road or on the other side of the trench?

If you're digging along a finished road of some type, (rock, gravel, blacktop, etc ) than you might not want to pile the dirt on top of it. It's just that much more work to protect your road and risk damage to it.

Sometimes the spoil pile has to go next to the trees with no way to push the dirt back it. Then you have to pull it in with the hoe bucket. It's very time consuming, but in some situations, it's your only option.

Sometimes backfilling can be more work and effort than digging the ditch!!!

Eddie

Highbeam · Jan 22, 2006

I agree, from the top down. Always have the hoe uphill. Imagine facing down hill with the tractor above you and hoeing from the downhill side. The frontend of that tractor is going to get light as you curl and lift the material.

My biggest trouble is always that trench. Crossing it or digging it while straddling the trench will mess up the trench or cause you to roll the tractor.

We have established to always have the hoe uphill and then it is nice to know that as you creep downhill while digging the trench that you will always have the tractor planted on native smooth ground. This way you can pile the spoils right beside the trench for easy backfilling.

The trick is when you get to the street. You don't want your tractor sticking out in to the street while you finish the last 20 feet of trench so you may be stuck with a straddle experience for the last bit. Mucho dangerous on a 4 foot trench. Think real hard so that you don't get yourself stuck at this point.

We used to call your area Grass Pants. There is a river through there that is great fun, the rogue or dechutes? There is a campground along the river that you can raft in to. Have a truck drive you way up the river and then raft your way back to camp. Great experience.

Darren · Jan 23, 2006

I've been in your situation and tried a trencher to no avail. I did start from the top to open a 4" wide trench. Some of the rock couldn't be handled by a backhoe. I ended up using a jackhammer on about 100' of the run which included all of the side hill. The only other problem was finding 3' long points for the jackhammer. FWIW, you don't pry with one. Always lift the hammer straight up.

dent8 · Jan 23, 2006

( You also use front bucket curled and run in the ground as a spade to hold you back.

This should be standard procedure when doing any hoe work.

I'd also sugest the trench line surface area be leveled to an even grade prior to starting the hoe work. Make it a little easier to maintain grade and set up the hoe.

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

When you say curled are you meaning cutting edge down so it digs in, or, my image of a (biceps) curl, tipping the bucket back and up, flexion in anatomy speak?
Curlydave, you may be one of my closer neighbors on here, my family's place is outside of Ruch, Medford's closer, but I like Grant's Pass more.
Dennis

CurlyDave · Jan 24, 2006

When you say curled are you meaning cutting edge down so it digs in, or, my image of a (biceps) curl, tipping the bucket back and up, flexion in anatomy speak?

I have done some research in the JD manual which came with the TLB and it first says to rest the filled bucket on the ground & push down with it until weight is taken off the front wheels. It then says that if this isn't enough to prevent the machine from moving, turn the bucket over and then dig in with the cutting edge. Digging in is probably a bit harder on the TLB, but clearly it is a reasonable thing to do. If I had to trade safety for a little more machine wear, safety wins every time.

QRTRHRS · Jan 24, 2006

( The trick is when you get to the street. You don't want your tractor sticking out in to the street while you finish the last 20 feet of trench so you may be stuck with a straddle experience for the last bit. Mucho dangerous on a 4 foot trench. Think real hard so that you don't get yourself stuck at this point. )If the hoe extends beyond the outriggers enough, you can alway set up perpendicular to the ditch to finish up. Sometimes you need to finish up without the outriggers supporting you in order to not collapse the sidewalls.

Taylortractornut · Jan 26, 2006

Dig goin down hill. Its alot easier to maintain grade that way to. I also recoment placinge caution tape in the trench about a foot above your utility lines. Most places cary a marker tape that has a print of the tpe of utility that your placing as well. I have to go put in 400 feet of underground electrical lines tomorrow myself going down a hill.

escavader · Jan 27, 2006

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When you say curled are you meaning cutting edge down so it digs in, or, my image of a (biceps) curl, tipping the bucket back and up, flexion in anatomy speak?
] i USUALLY PICK UP THE FRONT TIRES ALSO WHEN IM DIGGING
escavader