troubleshooting my MF 35

   #1  
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Hey,

I've got a '64 perkins.

A couple of days ago I was doing some field work and the tractor was running strong then just shut off. Tried to start but nothing, first thing I thought was that it was a fuel issue. So, today I replaced the fuel filters, cleaned the sediment bowl and bled the system to the best of my knowledge based on everything I've read.

Still wouldn't start, so just out of curiosity I gave it a snort of ether, and it fired right up.

Back out to the field, it ran strong for 20 minutes, then shut off again. This time I just cranked it for about 20 seconds, and it fired up. This happened 2 more times then I called it quits. Same thing, about 20 minutes of running, then after shutting off, it needed about 15 - 20 seconds, or more of cranking then it fired up.

What would you guys check next? Also, I've just realized the air intake/oil bath area could use some attention. Could this be part of the problem?

Thanks!!
 
   #2  

hazmat ranger

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Had a Massey 65 for many years- Perkins diesel. Had one time I forgot to open the fuel valve at the tank so got several minutes of running before it died. Sounds like yours is starving for fuel. Given what you've done yet have continuing issue maybe there is sediment by pick-up/outlet of tank? Back flush? Or perhaps could be sucking air somewhere and so starved for fuel. Hopefully not your injector pump. Either way, it sounds like a fuel issue for sure. Good luck.
 
   #3  

Soundguy

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deffinately sounds like fuel

I'd let fuel run into a bucket for 10m and see if it is a stoppage from the tank.
 
  
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#4  
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deffinately sounds like fuel

I'd let fuel run into a bucket for 10m and see if it is a stoppage from the tank.

I think I'll try that next, so at least I can rule out crud in the tank. I need to get this think back in the field, I'm a market gardner and I need my tractor! Thanks.
 
  
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#5  
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Oh and just read this here (http://www.gptractorparts.co.za/massey_ferguson_trouble_shooting_guide.html):


"We receive many calls from clients complaining that the tractor cuts out and after bleeding the diesel system it runs for about a half hour before cutting out again. To resolve this problem remove the fuel tap under the fuel tank and clean the sieve attached to the tap. However the fuel tank is by this stage in need of a good clean by a qualified workshop and cleaning the sieve will only be a temprorary solution."

Will I need to go through the bleeding process if I just disconnect from tank?

deffinately sounds like fuel

I'd let fuel run into a bucket for 10m and see if it is a stoppage from the tank.
 
   #6  

Soundguy

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probably no need to bleed if just disconnecting tank.
 
   #7  

Xfaxman

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Has anything changed that would prevent air from entering the tank as the fuel is used, like a new or different fuel cap?

I don't know how or where that tank is vented. Next time it dies, loosen the cap and listen for air going in. The vent might be plugged.
 
  
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#8  
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Hmm, I don't know how the tank is supposed to be vented, but I have not changed anything in regards to the fuel tank.

I'm still wondering if a non functioning air filtration system would affect performance. I need to dump and clean out the old oil and bring it up to the correct level.


Has anything changed that would prevent air from entering the tank as the fuel is used, like a new or different fuel cap?

I don't know how or where that tank is vented. Next time it dies, loosen the cap and listen for air going in. The vent might be plugged.
 
   #9  

The kid

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Hmm, I don't know how the tank is supposed to be vented, but I have not changed anything in regards to the fuel tank.

I'm still wondering if a non functioning air filtration system would affect performance. I need to dump and clean out the old oil and bring it up to the correct level.
A non functioning air filter isn't good news on any engine. That should be corrected ASAP. Sounds to me your losing fuel prime either due to a faulty fuel pump or blocked microscreen filters. Here's a picture from agcopartsbook.com from the Fuel tank Fuel pump page for the MF35 diesel. Have you shined a light down in the tank to see if the tank is contaminated. Draining the tank for 10 minutes is not the same as actually using the tractor jossling the fuel around. Here's a picture of the primer and sediment filters from www.agcopartsbook.com for a MF35 Perkins.

View attachment 315311
 
  
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#10  
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Thanks for the reply. I took apart that glass bowl and cleaned it, it actually wasn't that dirty. Did shine a light into tank but couldn't see as far as the outlet, since the fill cap is on the opposite end of the tank. I'm really trying to get this fixed quickly!! I need to check anywhere else there is a screen or filter.

When I was bleeding the system I took out the two bleed screws on the pump and when I cranked the engine fuel was spurting out quite far, so hopefully this means the pump is functioning.

Also, I pumped on the priming lever, and it did seem to push the fuel through the system, what's not clear from that that diagram is where any micro screen filters might be?


A non functioning air filter isn't good news on any engine. That should be corrected ASAP. Sounds to me your losing fuel prime either due to a faulty fuel pump or blocked microscreen filters. Here's a picture from agcopartsbook.com from the Fuel tank Fuel pump page for the MF35 diesel. Have you shined a light down in the tank to see if the tank is contaminated. Draining the tank for 10 minutes is not the same as actually using the tractor jossling the fuel around. Here's a picture of the primer and sediment filters from www.agcopartsbook.com for a MF35 Perkins.

View attachment 315311
 

The kid

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Thanks for the reply. I took apart that glass bowl and cleaned it, it actually wasn't that dirty. Did shine a light into tank but couldn't see as far as the outlet, since the fill cap is on the opposite end of the tank. I'm really trying to get this fixed quickly!! I need to check anywhere else there is a screen or filter.

When I was bleeding the system I took out the two bleed screws on the pump and when I cranked the engine fuel was spurting out quite far, so hopefully this means the pump is functioning.

Also, I pumped on the priming lever, and it did seem to push the fuel through the system, what's not clear from that that diagram is where any micro screen filters might be?

The one pictured at the top is the fuel cutoff and screws into the tank. The microscreen stands above it on the inside the tank. The second is in the sediment bowl. Also you have inline fuel filters that might need attention if they haven't been changed in awhile. An air leak some where in the fuel delivery will cause a prime loss. Bad diaphram will do the same thing. The Perkins engine is very sensitive to contamination. Are you working from a service manual?
View attachment 315317
 
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I have the service manual from AGCO, but it seems to have everything in there but this particular situation. Yes I need to check the screen in the tank for sure. Need to revisit any screens around sediment bowl, because I just removed it and cleaned it out, but didn't look further around there. Just put in two new AGCO fuel filters.

Where and what, is the diaphragm?



The one pictured at the top is the fuel cutoff and screws into the tank. The microscreen stands above it on the inside the tank. The second is in the sediment bowl. Also you have inline fuel filters that might need attention if they haven't been changed in awhile. An air leak some where in the fuel delivery will cause a prime loss. Bad diaphram will do the same thing. The Perkins engine is very sensitive to contamination. Are you working from a service manual?
View attachment 315317
 
  
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#13  
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OK, so now that I'm thinking I didn't see a screen like the one that is in the diagram above the glass sediment bowl. #31 in that diagram. Just did a quick search for that part number, doesn't look like it will be easy to find.
 

The kid

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OK, so now that I'm thinking I didn't see a screen like the one that is in the diagram above the glass sediment bowl. #31 in that diagram. Just did a quick search for that part number, doesn't look like it will be easy to find.
The screens can easily be cleaned with some carb cleaner spraying in the oposite direction of flow to clear the screen. If the cutoff has at one time been removed, there is a chance the vertical screen tube is gone thus allowing larger debris to enter into the fuel system and should be filtered by the large canister filters. The next time the engine quits after running look to see if the glass bowl is empty. That would be a clue. As other have mentioned if the tank filler cap is not vented properly could restrict flow somewhat. That too is easy enough to verify by leaving it slightly loose while using it, but not so loose as to have fuel spilling out while driving the tractor. Check for flow from the tank before tearing into it. The cutoff with a screen are a readily available part that fits several types of vintage MF tractors. My 135 has a TO30 fuel cutoff on it. :D
 
  
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#15  
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The screens can easily be cleaned with some carb cleaner spraying in the oposite direction of flow to clear the screen. If the cutoff has at one time been removed, there is a chance the vertical screen tube is gone thus allowing larger debris to enter into the fuel system and should be filtered by the large canister filters. The next time the engine quits after running look to see if the glass bowl is empty. That would be a clue. As other have mentioned if the tank filler cap is not vented properly could restrict flow somewhat. That too is easy enough to verify by leaving it slightly loose while using it, but not so loose as to have fuel spilling out while driving the tractor. Check for flow from the tank before tearing into it. The cutoff with a screen are a readily available part that fits several types of vintage MF tractors. My 135 has a TO30 fuel cutoff on it. :D

Cool, well I know what to check on next, I'll report back.
 
  
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#16  
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So, since I had the tractor in the garage today I went ahead and...

- cleaned out, refilled the air filter

- changed the oil and filter

I didn't do anything to the fuel system since I last tinkered with it. It fired right up, then I trucked out to the field and did some laps, it ran fine, no faltering.

I'll run it harder next week and report back, but meanwhile it feels good to have fresh fluids and clean breathing! Already did the tranny fluid last month.

Oh, one thing I did notice was there was a 1/4 of what appeared to be water in the glass on the bottom of the first fuel filter, hadn't seen that before.
 
   #17  

azrancher

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You can get a bad batch of diesel with water in it, happened to my F350 a while back. But that's what that water separater is for...

Rancher
 
   #18  

Soundguy

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yup... and I'd dump the water and then add in some treatment like diesel clear.

if any of the water made it to the filter it will (can) plug it...
 
  
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#19  
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OK, thing was running fine for about 45 minutes, then shut off again. Cranked for about 10 seconds, 5 different times or so, then it finally cranked and got me back to the barn.

I have a question: What if it's sucking air into the fuel system through any warn gaskets/seals? When it shut off last night I was keeping an eye on the fuel bowl and I'm quite certain there was no irregularity with that, so it seems like it's not necessarily starved for fuel, maybe.

At the fuel bowl there is a gasket, what if it's sucking air there? Would that describe the shutting off? Then as I repeatedly crank I pushing fuel and therefore the air through the system and out? Just me brainstorming here. This is getting to be quite a random disturbance, since after I changed the fuel filters it cranked and ran fine for a bit.
 
   #20  

pjbci

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Could the lining of a rubber line be collapsing? I dont think that tractor came with any rubber lines but just a thought.
 
  
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#21  
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I believe all the lines are aluminum, or some kind of metal.

Gaskets in fuel bowl and both filters. But it seems if a fitting is loose anywhere it would be a place for air to get sucked in, again I have no idea is would pose a problem, just speculating.

Could the lining of a rubber line be collapsing? I dont think that tractor came with any rubber lines but just a thought.
 
   #22  

Willl

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Sucking air between tank and injector pump can be a pain to solve. BTDT.

Wipe all fittings and such between the two clean and dry and create a small positive pressure in the tank. No more than a few PSI.

I take a short hose and a balled up rag stuffed into the filling hole and blow.

Recheck all fittings for ANY moisture.
 
   #23  

pjbci

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Maybe check or replace all those rubber grommets on the ends of all the fuel lines. They are not very expensive. Seems like one would be dripping fuel with engine off if that was the problem tho. I dont have a clue what to tell ya.
 
   #24  

Willl

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Back when I worked semi-trailer refrigeration this was a big problem with older units that had belly mounted tanks and trying to draw fuel with a engine mounted mechanical pump.

I took an old fuel cap and tapped it with a refrigeration fitting. Made it real easy just to fit my gauges to it and pressurize the tank a few psi with my nitrogen tank.
 
   #25  

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Also add, IF there is a small restriction at the tank by a slightly clogged screen or junk blocking the tank outlet, it will magnify any small suction side leak you may have.

If you didn't have one before, it could also create one at a weak spot.
 
   #26  

shona13

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I have answered this problem in the past but I would not know how to find it on the site ,so.

Start with the simple things first ,you have changed the fuel filters and the O rings??there is a copper /rubber washer under the bolt that secures the fuel filter canister replace the washer or make sure it is serviceable.

Turn the fuel of at the tank isolation valve and remove the fuel pipe ,it is a bit easier to remove the lower end of the pipe first ,it allows you to jiggle the pipe around a bit when trying to removing the valve end, also you may find it difficult to remove the pipe after undoing the tube nut ,if so use a pair of pliers and CAREFULLY twist and pull the pipe out ,after twenty plus years the sealing sleeves on the end of the fuel lines become hard and kind of lock the end of the pipe in there ,just take care when removing.I will talk about the seals later.

Next open the fuel valve ALL THE WAY and there should be a good healthy flow of diesel say enough to fill a coffee cup in fifteen seconds, LET THE FUEL FLOW FOR AT LEAST TWO MINUTES this will prove the supply is reliable.
If you find that either the fuel does not or is slow flow ,siphon or drain the tank and ,carefully unscrew the fuel valve from the tank,remove the small CIGAR SHAPED filter and inspect ,clean if required,you may find the filter is missing and possibly slopping around inside the tank this is usually the case when the part of the valve body that the filter locates on has corroded away ,you may decide to replace the valve anyway lets say the filter is good and there is no flow through the valve there is a small screw that STOPS the isolation tap from coming all the way out, remove this screw and screw the tap out of the valve body,use a piece of thin wire and poke around and clean the debris out ,when cleaned CAREFULLY blow the valve out with air thoroughly wash in gas and blow out again replace the O ring on the tap spindle this will fix another common leak on the Fergie reassemble using thread tape or sealer ,do not over tighten and make sure the valve is in the correct position to line up with the fuel line.

That is the fuel tap eliminated.

Next the fuel lift pump:
The Fuel Lift pump provides a low pressure fuel supply Approx 15/18 P.S.I. via the fuel filters to the fuel injector pump, the Fuel Lift pump includes the Glass Sedimenter fuel bowl and a fine mesh brass screen ,The screen is located under the glass bowl sealing rubber washer.

The Glass Bowl gives the operator a VISUAL on how clean or otherwise the fuel is, GOING to the filters and as you have experienced , if there is WATER/ RUST ETC in the fuel tank.

To test the lift pump :Remove the outlet/discharge fuel pipe from the fuel lift pump and with the fuel turned on at the tank operate the hand primer on the side of the pump body, every FULL stroke .

Note:
Before doing this check and make sure the priming lever is not SITTING ON THE CAM that is the pump is operated by a cam lobe on the engine and if as is sometimes the case the engine stops when the pump operating lever is ON TOP OF THE CAM the hand primer will not operate at full stroke ,if this is the case ,pull the engine stop out and crank the engine a little short burst and at the same time pushing gently down on the priming lever you will feel the lever going up and down as it FOLLOWS the cam,you want to stop the engine when the lever is at the lowest point on the cam,or the lever is at it,s highest point you will know what I mean when you do it.
The pump should produce fuel at pressure ,say 15 psi, Plug the discharge outlet with your finger and operate the hand priming lever and you will feel pressure ,slowly remove your finger and the fuel should come out under slight pressure ,this will tell you that the fuel pump is doing what it should do, there is another thorough test but this will do for now.
If there is no fuel being discharged from the pump,check the fuel line from the tank to the pump if this is o,k remove the lift pump ,strip and check BOTH the suction and discharge valves, the Diaphragm and the shaft seal Quite often the threads on the pump are a bit the worse for wear and unfortunately there is no real fix for that one so if this is the case replace the pump ,of course this would be your decision.

So we have fuel to the lift pump RELIABLE FUEL SUPPLY.

Next we remove the fuel line coming from the secondary fuel filter to the fuel injector pump,this is the line nearest the operator when sitting on the seat OR standing on the left hand side of the tractor looking at the engine and the fuel injector pump the supply line is on the extreme RIGHT HAND END of the injector pump,remove and operate the hand primer as before and you should get a GOOD STRONG SUPPLY of fuel ,again put your finger over the end of the pipe ,operate the hand primer and wait a couple of seconds slowly remove you finger and the fuel should still come out under pressure if not pressurize again and have l a look checking for leaks,if all is good up to here .

Bleeding the injector pump:

If one was to read the various instructions on Bleeding Diesel fuel systems one may end up somewhat confused so let me give you a procedure that I have used for many years as a Massey serviceman.
Just a note ,the most common thing I encounter with tractor owners and bleeding a fuel system is that most seem to be in a terrible hurry to get the tractor going,trust me the more thorough you bleed the system the more likely you are to be successful, so ,take your time catch the fuel in a bean tin and mixed with some grease ,painted onto machinery works great at keeping the rust away.

Filters replaced and primed that is undo the Banjo bolt on top of the primary fuel filter ,use a 5/8 a/f ring spanner undo half turn ,operate the primer lever till all air is out ,tighten the bolt.
Undo the BOTTOM Injector pump body vent screw (5/16 inch a/f ring spanner) ,This is the one you mentioned you got Diesel squirting across the fence into the neighbours yard anyway undo half turn, prime with the hand pump ,don,t be in a hurry the more air you get out the better,then do the same with the top vent screw.

Next undo ONE of the high pressure injector lines( use either a 5/8 or 11/16 inc a/f pipe spanner or an open ended spanner) at the PUMP pick one that is easy to get to 1/2 turn is enough then with the engine stop in the RUN position and the hand throttle set to give a high idle say 1000 rpm and with the battery fully charged crank the engine ,if you find that it is not going to start right away don't challenge the starter motor stop and let it cool for a minute in other words don't crank for more than 20/.30 seconds at a time.
When the engine starts you are now dealing with ultra high pressure atomised diesel fuel which if injected into your finger etc.. could see you loosing that limb so I suggest that when the tractor is running ,it will be running on two cylinders ,STOP THE ENGINE THEN TIGHTEN THE INJECTOR LINE This will remove any risk of exposure to the atomised fuel,restart and check for leaks.
That is the fuel system .

The only thing I have not mentioned is the Fuel injector pump internals but by your description of the events leading up to the breakdown I don't think it is the pump.
The CAV DPA injector pump requires specialist skills and knowledge and as an owner operator I would suggest that if there is a fault with the injector pump We have a RESIDENT Expert in DIESELTECH Who I am sure will help if required .
I know this is quite a long drawn out reply but I thought it may help others with similar problems.

There are a few things that could also cause problems ,things like fuel line repairs that are leaking,rubber hoses installed as a TEMPORARY FIX and as mentioned by one other member the sealing sleeves on the end of the fuel lines on the low pressure side of the fuel system, ALL lines have sealing sleeves ,Note: There are two different sizes of sleeves make sure you use the correct ones ,when replacing it is not necessary to tighten the fittings to much ,the rubber sleeves will expand with moderate pressure also be careful and make sure you don't cross thread the tube nuts when assembling which is very easy to do .
That's it from me .
As always .
happy Days.
Hutch.
 
  
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#27  
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WOW shona13, thank you for the detailed instructions. Extremely helpful. This is getting printed right now and put into my tractor folder!!
 
 
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