Tundra vs F350: how I made my choice

[Builder]

This was a 02 F-350 crew dually
Poor HEUI injector performance throught owr ownership, rough idle missing.
The automatic transmission failed at 45,000 miles, faulty sprag gear recall on that, and no "real fix" according to Ford Dealer, had local transmission company rebuild heavy duty fixed OEM Sprag gear with aftermarket, and billet torque convert tranny could hold 1,600 ft/lbs;however the cam position sensors continued to fail sold the "Power Puke lemon with 75,550.

I didn't replace my 1st cps in one of my 7.3's until 115,000 miles. Dodge/Cummins diesels have problems, too, like #53 blocks that were only cast 1/2 as thick as they were supposed to be and killer dowel pin problems.

 

[Builder]

Well... bet that title got your attention. I just thought I'd give my TBN community my decision process since there were so many of your posts gave information to me that assisted me in my decision. This is my pickup purchase path.

I have a gas F35O that is 20 years old, manual transmission which no longer does what I need.. I fear another breakdown, AC and heater don't work, it's been beat up as a ranch truck. It's time has come.

Everybody says that vehicle prices, new and used, are REALLY down at present. I can confirm that... read on.

I studied hard on a 08 Tundra (4x4, double cab, standard bed, 5.7L, 6 speed auto, cloth bucket seats, cold kit, power heated mirrors, tow package, carpets, skid plate, step assist, etc.) and fell in love with it because of its 401 ft lbs of torque and reported actual mileage of 19 or so on the road.

Six super reliable Toyota vehicles in the family over the years, 4 still in service (one my son rolled, the other my MIL took to 300,000 mi.), have won me brand loyalty. Towing capacity of 10,300 lbs bumper hitch and about 13,000 for a gooseneck was reported by many of you as realistic. There are even numerous reports of folks admittedly overloading the vehicle either in the bed or via trailer, and it behaving reasonably under those conditions. No current Tundra owner indicated they were unhappy with their vehicle, but rather the opposite.

Using the net, I found I became just as expert as a salesman at locating appropriately equipped vehicles. Sending emails to the internet salesmen actually worked superbly... my search ranged from Dallas thru Austin and down to Corpus Christi. These internet folks WILL deal over the net and phone... much more pleasant experience than taking time at the dealership, once you have kicked the tires and given a test drive.

I found a vehicle with the features I needed (above) and a minimum of add ons. MSRP was $32,500 - 5000 Toyota discount - 2000 business discount (need tax id, or business card and proof of being in business) - 2500 dealer discount = $23,000 + TTL. And, this was without further negotiations. So, REAL discounts are available at this moment in time.

So, that would get me into a sweet TUNDRA . Then I took a hard look at my actual NEEDS for a vehicle:

..tow a heavy gooseneck maybe 15 days a year
..5 round bale hay trailer ( 5 x 1500 = 7500 lbs + trailer)
..24 foot cattle trailer (max 12 cows x 1200 lbs = 14400 lbs + trailer)
..20 foot hydraulic dump trailer (20,000 capacity with dirt/rock)
..use bed of pickup to haul feed, equipment, supplies
..driver + one passenger at most for trailer hauls

I could load fewer cattle or less rock and the TUNDRA would handle it, but that means more trips and time and fuel.

My other transportation needs are fully met with other family vehicles: Camry station wagon (30+mpg), 4 Runner (18 mpg), Dodge grand caravan (14 mpg), so need for low mileage or carrying multiple people in comfort is met.

Many posts on TBN and elsewhere on the net about the reliability of diesels and current pricing led me to check out Craig's list. Good that I did. I found the following:

1997 Ford CC F350 XLT Dually 7.3L Powerstroke Diesel w/5speed std. trans, lots of power and COLD A/C. Shows 324xxx on the odo but does not show or run like it. I change the oil every 3500 miles and the previous owner did same. Pwr Windows and Door Locks, Pwr Lumbar, Tinted Windows, Recent New Windshield, New Tires, Cold Air Intake, Large Free-flowing Exhaust, Recent Front Pads, Rotors and Wheelbearings, New Shocks, Pioneer CD MP3 Player w/ Aux In for Ipod etc, Bed Liner, Gooseneck Hitch, New Aluminum Tool Box, New Aluminum Bed Rails and Tailgate Protector, Chrome Drop Bumper, Bug Deflector, Interior is in excellent condition, 90 Gallon Diesel Transfer Tank w/ Electric Pump. This truck is in excellent condition: $5000 cash.

AND, it was about 1 mile away! I drove it and had my mechanic look it over. This truck had been babied and in nearly perfect cosmetic shape. Absolutely no findable mechanical concerns. Huge numbers of you TBN folks claim that the Navistar 7.3 has extreme reliability... never having owned a diesel, I hope so, and you better be right... because:

I bought it

The final straw was the 90 gal diesel transfer tank.. which I actually need so I can easily obtain and transport off road diesel for my tractor. You knew that somehow this whole story had a tractor connection, didn't you

So, now, I can fuel my tractor, tow whenever I need to, few truck hauls will keep truck fuel costs down and at a buy in price I can live with.

Hope this ramble is useful to someone.... clearly, it is not intended to cause animated discussion of diesel vs gas, or 1/2 ton vs a real truck, but to explain my decision path... your path may differ

Anybody need a beat up 20 year old crew cab gasser

Great choice, indeed. If it was an automatic, you'd be in trouble with the E4OD, what a pile they were. The ZF-5 is not as good of a tranny as the ZF-6, but it'll get the job done and cost less to maintain than the automatic, but I hated my ZF-5's. I think the older Powerstrokes were pretty good, albeit only 215HP. That is a pretty mellow set-up on power, but you should get another 100K out of the engine. So it'll cost you $5,000 + repairs to go 100K versus 6 times that for the privelage of owning a new Tundra. No way the repairs will add up to the cost of a new Toyota. Plus that Ford is a heavier-built truck that will haul more weight safely.

For the little bit of work you're doing, it was the better choice. Enjoy the saved money towards another piece of equipment.

 

[texasjohn]

OK... note to self... figure out what color is the GOOD cam position sensor and see if mine is that or not (I know that prior owner HAS replaced the cps), and maybe go ahead and get one as a spare.. be prepared

EDIT: I love the net.... found this site which seems to have superb info regarding the cps.. even discovered that it's not called a CPS: Ford calls it a CMP sensor and International calls it a CAMP sensor.

And, it has begun... although it passed a safety check 3 days ago and got a sticker, last night I had a headlight blown out... so, gotta start spending on the BIG BLUE BUGGER (I'm trying out names for the truck to see what sounds best)

But, on the good side, I found a BRAND NEW diesel water/particulate filter setup for the 90 gallon transfer tank in the tool box and replaced the obviously venerable one (lots of crud in the bowl, etc) with the brand new one... just included in the purchase price.

 

[NOSPARKPLUGS]

I didn't replace my 1st cps in one of my 7.3's until 115,000 miles. Dodge/Cummins diesels have problems, too, like #53 blocks that were only cast 1/2 as thick as they were supposed to be and killer dowel pin problems.

In all respect all diesels have their "little gremlins", and research is key before a diesel purchase. I personally don't like the Powerstroke, even more now since the Ford-Navistar relationship has soured over who's responsible for the EXCESSIVE warranty claims on all Powerstrokes now. My old business partner was a "Ford Diesel truck" diehard, hounded me to death for us to go with Ford, I reluctantly agreed, bad choice in the end

you got one of the "good" 7.3L Powerstrokes, I would keep it

AHH? the Brazilian "53" block isolated to a 1/2 year of production only on, early 2000yr model 2nd generation 24valve ISB; which in "real world" application Cummins reported a low rate of leaks or cracks even with the 53 block, confirmed reports 53 blocks with over 200,00 miles logged.

Killer Dowel pin was isolated to 1st generation ISB 12valves, their is a kit to "fix" the problem, and is $25.00 takes about 1 hour if you have never replaced one.

Cummins ISB 5.9L 24valve's: max torque is at or below 1,650rpm, in line 6 cylinder easy to maintain, and service vs V8, 40% less moving parts no aluminum heads to blow off, or weak connecting rods, Cummins just sucks the paint off the other V8 diesels going up a hill towing, and I still get a our Ford never produced a smile when towing? always

 

[Highbeam]

I would have rather had a cummins too. Unfortunately Dodge didn't see fit to make a crew cab until 2003 which means a 20,000 dollar +/- used truck.

The new CPS is grey and is free from Ford if yours fails. The Ford folks actually avoid the new CPS since it actually causes more troubles, I would just go to NAPA and throw the 20$ extra of whatever color in your glove box. That's my plan anyway and mine looks original.

I towed 7000 lbs with my new 2000 F350 for 100 miles yesterday and honestly, the gas 350 with 265 HP from in my old half ton chevy actually pulled it about the same. The big diesel with 235 HP and about a ton more truck weight got better MPG and felt much much more stable and "safe" on the road though. I measured the full 15 psi of allowable boost (wastegated turbo) and still had some grey haze at full boost so I know we have a good turbo and plenty of fuel.

Every engine has some troubles and every engine has loyal followers. I prefer the cummins but know that all of the newer diesels are excellent so had no problems trying out the powerstroke.

 

[texasjohn]

Just found a superbly interesting site.... lists complaints for all makes and models of vehicles... and for lots of years... so, you can do your own investigations of documented problems and not have to rely on "the buzz."

Consumer Complaint

 

[RobJ]

Went through 10 cam position sensors their is no fix, I cant tell you how many times the 7.3L powerstroke left us stranded on the side of the road. The only real fix is to sell the Powerstroke for a Cummins

Yeah but then the rest of the truck falls apart. The engine will outlast the truck. But it's a little harder to replace the truck around the engine. And as mentioned for some reason Dodge came out with a crew cab late in the game. That's what I was looking for.

hehe, no spark plugs for you still have glow plugs and you gotta wait for the light to go off.

 

[Skyco]

Great choice, indeed. If it was an automatic, you'd be in trouble with the E4OD, what a pile they were. The ZF-5 is not as good of a tranny as the ZF-6, but it'll get the job done and cost less to maintain than the automatic, but I hated my ZF-5's.

Not so sure about that...my E4OD was rebuilt at 109,000 miles, probably 100,000 miles of that was towing, looked great inside. As I previously mentioned I had a chance to get a BTS built trans so I did it early before it failed. If you look at the manual trans those early years they cost almost as much as an auto to rebuild right and there were a lot of problems with the dual mass flywheels. I'd say its a toss up as to cost per mile....

texasjohn- do you know if you still have the original flywheel or if its been replaced with another DMFW or one of the aftermarket conventional flywheels?

 

[Dargo]

Just found a superbly interesting site.... lists complaints for all makes and models of vehicles... and for lots of years... so, you can do your own investigations of documented problems and not have to rely on "the buzz."

Consumer Complaint

That site is rather odd. Most of the "complaints" I read are completely unrelated to the vehicle and, in my opinion, completely irrelevant. For example, the bottom listing on the front page is for a 1988 Honda where the complaint is about a valve stem on a set of tires. Uh, I don't really think the site should even bother to allow such 'complaints' to be posted. I looked up a vehicle I own and about the only complaints were about trailer tires failing when towed with their vehicle. Again, the complaint has absolutely nothing to do with the vehicle. I'm not complaining about you at all, but I'm rather disappointed in a site that allows bogus complaints to be listed. In tractor terms it would be like complaining about the rear tires on your 8N being worn out.

 

[skargo]

Yeah but then the rest of the truck falls apart. The engine will outlast the truck. But it's a little harder to replace the truck around the engine. And as mentioned for some reason Dodge came out with a crew cab late in the game. That's what I was looking for.

hehe, no spark plugs for you still have glow plugs and you gotta wait for the light to go off.

No glow plugs on a Cummins