Turf vs R1 vs R4?
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Slamfire
Veteran Member
I had exactly one tractor that did not have R-1s. It had superior tracton on all surfaces, and with less compaction. Side hill traction was attrocious, and every time I turned it ate up any surface under it. Of course it was a crawler. I won't presume to tell anyone which tires are better for a lawn, I don't own one. I prefer a yard, they are easier to take care of. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Mark_in_NH
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Why do you think they are so much more expensive than the "ags" and "turfs" that are available )</font>
If I remember correctly, When I was shopping and finally made my deal, the R3's and the R4's were part of the arranged price, it was merely my choice of which ones I wanted. If I wanted the R1's I would have had to cough up more money.
I suspect that this will vary from region to region and maybe even dealer to dealer
If I remember correctly, When I was shopping and finally made my deal, the R3's and the R4's were part of the arranged price, it was merely my choice of which ones I wanted. If I wanted the R1's I would have had to cough up more money.
I suspect that this will vary from region to region and maybe even dealer to dealer
glennmac
Veteran Member
Here is another picture from today of Earl installing the loader frame while Bob chats on the phone with Jennifer Lopez. Decent view of the tires (better if I could post higher res pictures here).
The front tires are Michelin XM108 radial R1W's, the highest rated agricultural tire in the world. I was the first customer in the U.S. to get them in the size I needed and wanted, which had only been sold in Europe.
The rears are Michelin XM27 radial R1W/R4's (an R1W pattern with R4 reinforced sidewalls and tread).
I will lay out everything in exhaustive detail in my 4 part article. This was a six month research project. I bought a new tractor primarily because I thought I had found the perfect tire set. "Perfect" to me means being able to defeat the Oozama Ver Boten while still being gentle to my lawns.
I'll list all the candidate front and rear tires I researched from Michelin, Firestone, Goodyear and Titan. All the specs. All the necessary computations of 4WD ratios. How to get the right rims. Prices. What considerations I balanced in my final choice (including garage height; I could have used rear XM27's that were 2" bigger and hence better for 4WD ratio ... aka Mark Chalkley's rear XM27's on his former souped-up L4310.)
In short, I bought the tractor without tires or rims for a credit of about $1800. Bought the Michelins from two different local tire dealers (one having a complete monopoly on Michelin ag tires in the entire Northeast) ... $239 each for the XM108's (a monopoly price) and $405 each for the XM27's (a discounted price, I think, because they are also marketed as an R4 industrial tire by non-ag Michelin dealers). Then I had to buy a mix and match of different Kubota rims from different Kubota models, all wildly overpriced, to match the Michelin tires. When the price smoke cleared, I spent $168 dollars more for the Michelins and the Kubota rims than the dealer cost (from the Kubota factory) on L3430 R4 tires and rims. Hence, assuming a dealer markup to the normal customer on tires and rims, I claim my radial tires were "free". (Not counting the 1000 hours of research and travel I engaged in.)
Warranty? Hah! Bring it on, Kubota. Every Grand L model with R4 tires, except the 3130 and 3430, is out of acceptable 4WD ratio spec according to both the Goodyear and Firestone farm tire handbooks. The bad news for the 3130 and 3430 is that the Firestone rear R4 they all use is on the wrong (too wide) rim size, according to Firestone. (Purely for marketing reasons, Kubota sticks a smaller R4 tire on the 31/3430 than on the rest of the L Series line, but uses the exact same R4 rims as it uses for the bigger R4 tires on the 3830 and above.) My tire selections are all on the preferred Michelin rim sizes, and are all within acceptable 4WD spec.
The calclulations don't lie. I shared them all with the dealer before the transaction, and I'll lay out all the calculations to back up my claims in my planned series of posts.
The front tires are Michelin XM108 radial R1W's, the highest rated agricultural tire in the world. I was the first customer in the U.S. to get them in the size I needed and wanted, which had only been sold in Europe.
The rears are Michelin XM27 radial R1W/R4's (an R1W pattern with R4 reinforced sidewalls and tread).
I will lay out everything in exhaustive detail in my 4 part article. This was a six month research project. I bought a new tractor primarily because I thought I had found the perfect tire set. "Perfect" to me means being able to defeat the Oozama Ver Boten while still being gentle to my lawns.
I'll list all the candidate front and rear tires I researched from Michelin, Firestone, Goodyear and Titan. All the specs. All the necessary computations of 4WD ratios. How to get the right rims. Prices. What considerations I balanced in my final choice (including garage height; I could have used rear XM27's that were 2" bigger and hence better for 4WD ratio ... aka Mark Chalkley's rear XM27's on his former souped-up L4310.)
In short, I bought the tractor without tires or rims for a credit of about $1800. Bought the Michelins from two different local tire dealers (one having a complete monopoly on Michelin ag tires in the entire Northeast) ... $239 each for the XM108's (a monopoly price) and $405 each for the XM27's (a discounted price, I think, because they are also marketed as an R4 industrial tire by non-ag Michelin dealers). Then I had to buy a mix and match of different Kubota rims from different Kubota models, all wildly overpriced, to match the Michelin tires. When the price smoke cleared, I spent $168 dollars more for the Michelins and the Kubota rims than the dealer cost (from the Kubota factory) on L3430 R4 tires and rims. Hence, assuming a dealer markup to the normal customer on tires and rims, I claim my radial tires were "free". (Not counting the 1000 hours of research and travel I engaged in.)
Warranty? Hah! Bring it on, Kubota. Every Grand L model with R4 tires, except the 3130 and 3430, is out of acceptable 4WD ratio spec according to both the Goodyear and Firestone farm tire handbooks. The bad news for the 3130 and 3430 is that the Firestone rear R4 they all use is on the wrong (too wide) rim size, according to Firestone. (Purely for marketing reasons, Kubota sticks a smaller R4 tire on the 31/3430 than on the rest of the L Series line, but uses the exact same R4 rims as it uses for the bigger R4 tires on the 3830 and above.) My tire selections are all on the preferred Michelin rim sizes, and are all within acceptable 4WD spec.
The calclulations don't lie. I shared them all with the dealer before the transaction, and I'll lay out all the calculations to back up my claims in my planned series of posts.
Attachments
Neophyte
Platinum Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Not counting the 1000 hours of research and travel I engaged in. )</font>
Glenn, you must really like tires.
Assuming the average life span for a man is around 72 years, you have spent about 0.16% of your life on tires for your tractor. Assuming an average work day of about 8 hours, you have worked 125 days, or a third of a year, finding the perfect tire for your tractor.
I think the quest for the Holy Grail took less time than that ... at least in the Monty Python movie it did. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Muhammad, I think we need a TA forum ... Tractor-holics Anonymous. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
On a serious note, I appreciate the fact that you are willing to share you research with us. This looks like a pretty slick tire ... maybe slick is not the best word to use. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Glenn, you must really like tires.
Assuming the average life span for a man is around 72 years, you have spent about 0.16% of your life on tires for your tractor. Assuming an average work day of about 8 hours, you have worked 125 days, or a third of a year, finding the perfect tire for your tractor.
I think the quest for the Holy Grail took less time than that ... at least in the Monty Python movie it did. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Muhammad, I think we need a TA forum ... Tractor-holics Anonymous. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
On a serious note, I appreciate the fact that you are willing to share you research with us. This looks like a pretty slick tire ... maybe slick is not the best word to use. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
JohnMiller3
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<font color="blue">( This looks like a pretty slick tire ... maybe slick is not the best word to use. ) </font>
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
s1120
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WOW Glenn, you must realy like tires. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif When I researched tires for my Garden tractor, I went be what I had, could get, and what I had seen used on my land. I ended up with r1's but I ended up getting the wrong size. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I went the same size as the old ones were, and the r1's ended up being a little narrow for the rims. Oh well, live and learn.
How about a new Tire/wheel fourm? We get a lot of Q's about them. We can start with Glenn's post, and this one here ag tires
How about a new Tire/wheel fourm? We get a lot of Q's about them. We can start with Glenn's post, and this one here ag tires
_RaT_
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"Glenn, you must really like tires."
Neophyte, I think **** is a bit more appropriate. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Now I'm curious about the report. My Michelin dealer talked me out of a set of Michelin XM27's and the R4 version XM37's. It was for my 2WD tractor. After explaining what I needed, he steered me to a less expensive alternative. I still think the XM27's would have performed better then my bias ply R1's, but I decided on a new tractor instead. I picked up a L3830 with R4's. The tires are fine for my dirt/turf. I checked into XM27's and XM37's, the R4 variant of the XM27. After pricing, I figured I had already spent enough and who knows how much little precious valuable time I have during the day. Glen was fortunate to get a dealer to sell a tractor with no tires/rims and to get some superb prices on the tires, my quotes were many hundreds of dollars more. After putting 100 hours on it, I'm quite happy using the R4's for my needs. One advantage is that they don't dig a trench when I loose traction on my hills while mowing in 2WD as my R1's do. The R1's offer considerably better traction for loader work but don't offer nearly the load carrying ability unless you opt for the Michelin or competitors equivalents. But then your stuck going through some of the gyrations Glen went through, a consideration for me should my current tires wear out. Perhaps his report will save those interested a whole bunch of time.
Another important consideration for those of us who don't have to be on a work area when it's muddy, it doesn't matter what tire you have, your going turn a muddy area into a very muddy and messy area very quickly, I advise you stay off the area until it dries.
Neophyte, I think **** is a bit more appropriate. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Now I'm curious about the report. My Michelin dealer talked me out of a set of Michelin XM27's and the R4 version XM37's. It was for my 2WD tractor. After explaining what I needed, he steered me to a less expensive alternative. I still think the XM27's would have performed better then my bias ply R1's, but I decided on a new tractor instead. I picked up a L3830 with R4's. The tires are fine for my dirt/turf. I checked into XM27's and XM37's, the R4 variant of the XM27. After pricing, I figured I had already spent enough and who knows how much little precious valuable time I have during the day. Glen was fortunate to get a dealer to sell a tractor with no tires/rims and to get some superb prices on the tires, my quotes were many hundreds of dollars more. After putting 100 hours on it, I'm quite happy using the R4's for my needs. One advantage is that they don't dig a trench when I loose traction on my hills while mowing in 2WD as my R1's do. The R1's offer considerably better traction for loader work but don't offer nearly the load carrying ability unless you opt for the Michelin or competitors equivalents. But then your stuck going through some of the gyrations Glen went through, a consideration for me should my current tires wear out. Perhaps his report will save those interested a whole bunch of time.
Another important consideration for those of us who don't have to be on a work area when it's muddy, it doesn't matter what tire you have, your going turn a muddy area into a very muddy and messy area very quickly, I advise you stay off the area until it dries.
Whiskey
Platinum Member
Glenn:
OK, I just finnished reading this all this morning and I think I'm smarter now or I think I am? well heck I feel smarter anyway, but I need an Aleve now my head is hurting.
I'm not about to run to the store and buy myself a new set of tires but I'm looking forward to reading your research. Thanks for sharring.
Whiskey
OK, I just finnished reading this all this morning and I think I'm smarter now or I think I am? well heck I feel smarter anyway, but I need an Aleve now my head is hurting.
I'm not about to run to the store and buy myself a new set of tires but I'm looking forward to reading your research. Thanks for sharring.
Whiskey
glennmac
Veteran Member
Paul, thanks for linking that thread on my so-called Ag Elimination Rule. I started it because of my skepticism about claims that ag tires unacceptably scuff lawns. It developed into a good discussion.
Rat, **** is accurate ... because I have been buried thereupto in mud more times than anyone in the universe. For those not familiar with my saga, I have a low swale of very wet land that completely bisects my property, which I call the Oozama Ver Boten. I must cross it to get to the bulk of my acreage. I also want it mowed. So I deliberately go in there with my R4-ed B2910 over and over. If the R4's break through the "surface tension" of the vegetation, they will completely fill up with mud in one revolution and will not shed the mud. At that point it is hopeless. Have been buried 16 times. Had to call tow trucks to get me out 8 of those times at considerable expense. Hence my entire tractoring focus for two years has been on getting bigger tires with better wet soil performance, so I can cross and work in the Oozama. Yet I don't want unnecessary imprinting or scuffing because even much of my non-Oozama land is soft year-round.
Most people dont have this issue (or obsession). If my land were all drier with no mud issue, I would definitely get turf tires. R4's imprint soft soil almost as much as ags, although the imprints may be slightly shallower.
Here is another good thread Best Tire for Boggy Ground. It is the one that originally clued be into R1W, R2 and high flotation tires.
The intent of my "report" will be exactly what Rat suggests: to explain exactly what I did and all the hoops through which I had to jump, so others don't have to do so and can decide whether they want to pursue the radial tire option on their own or with their dealers.
Rat, **** is accurate ... because I have been buried thereupto in mud more times than anyone in the universe. For those not familiar with my saga, I have a low swale of very wet land that completely bisects my property, which I call the Oozama Ver Boten. I must cross it to get to the bulk of my acreage. I also want it mowed. So I deliberately go in there with my R4-ed B2910 over and over. If the R4's break through the "surface tension" of the vegetation, they will completely fill up with mud in one revolution and will not shed the mud. At that point it is hopeless. Have been buried 16 times. Had to call tow trucks to get me out 8 of those times at considerable expense. Hence my entire tractoring focus for two years has been on getting bigger tires with better wet soil performance, so I can cross and work in the Oozama. Yet I don't want unnecessary imprinting or scuffing because even much of my non-Oozama land is soft year-round.
Most people dont have this issue (or obsession). If my land were all drier with no mud issue, I would definitely get turf tires. R4's imprint soft soil almost as much as ags, although the imprints may be slightly shallower.
Here is another good thread Best Tire for Boggy Ground. It is the one that originally clued be into R1W, R2 and high flotation tires.
The intent of my "report" will be exactly what Rat suggests: to explain exactly what I did and all the hoops through which I had to jump, so others don't have to do so and can decide whether they want to pursue the radial tire option on their own or with their dealers.
