Using what I have

[muddstopper]

I am building a splitter and wanting to use valves I already have to reduce cost. What i have is a 25hp Kholer engine, 11gpm Vickers Vane pump, Log splitter valve, https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-1262&catname=hydraulic splitter valve with ¾ ports. I am putting a hydraulic cylinder to lift my 4way wedge and have another valve (with 3 seperate control functions) with 1/2 inch ports that came off a long arm mower. I am also putting ahydraulic assit boom for picking up those heavy rounds to place on the splitter. I have and want to use this electric/hydraulic control valve, https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-6136&catname=hydraulic and https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?catname=hydraulic&item=9-5883-1 subplate, sae6 ports. My reasoning for using the electric valve is simply because it would allow me to use a power cord allowing some flexibility of movement when hooking up to the big rounds.

Now for my problem, Even tho all the control valves should handle my pump volume, I feel the restriction from reduceing hose size as I go from valve to valve in series will result in heat and slowing down of my splitter cylinder. I will be placeing restricting fittings to control speed of my wedge and boom cylinder. I dont see my operating all the cylinders at the same time so I am not worried about one operation slowing down other operations. I guess what I am asking is what is the best way to plumb all this up.
I also have another control valve with 3/4 ports I could use to control the 4way function, but I was wanting to use the stack valve incase i wanted to put a lift deck or other function on the splitter. Or I could use the stack valve to control the boom lift and just forget the electric valve. . Anyways, I could use other opinions and advise, and thanks in advance for your help.

 

[oldnslo]

I am building a splitter and wanting to use valves I already have to reduce cost. What i have is a 25hp Kholer engine, 11gpm Vickers Vane pump, Log splitter valve, https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-1262&catname=hydraulic splitter valve with ｾ ports. I am putting a hydraulic cylinder to lift my 4way wedge and have another valve (with 3 seperate control functions) with 1/2 inch ports that came off a long arm mower. I am also putting ahydraulic assit boom for picking up those heavy rounds to place on the splitter. I have and want to use this electric/hydraulic control valve, https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-6136&catname=hydraulic and https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?catname=hydraulic&item=9-5883-1 subplate, sae6 ports. My reasoning for using the electric valve is simply because it would allow me to use a power cord allowing some flexibility of movement when hooking up to the big rounds.

Now for my problem, Even tho all the control valves should handle my pump volume, I feel the restriction from reduceing hose size as I go from valve to valve in series will result in heat and slowing down of my splitter cylinder. I will be placeing restricting fittings to control speed of my wedge and boom cylinder. I dont see my operating all the cylinders at the same time so I am not worried about one operation slowing down other operations. I guess what I am asking is what is the best way to plumb all this up.
I also have another control valve with 3/4 ports I could use to control the 4way function, but I was wanting to use the stack valve incase i wanted to put a lift deck or other function on the splitter. Or I could use the stack valve to control the boom lift and just forget the electric valve. . Anyways, I could use other opinions and advise, and thanks in advance for your help.

1) How are you going to drive the Vickers vane pump? They produce rated flow at 1200 RPM and typically do not have bearings in them that will with stand side loads from being belt driven. Suspect the Kohler engine operates at 3000 - 3600 RPM. Your vane pump will not operate at that speed and would be producing around 30+ GPM.

2) The manual "Splitter valve" shown in surplus center does not state if it is capable of "Power Beyond" duty.

3) The Eaton Vickers DG4V 3 valve may or may not allow pressure in the tank line. I think this model will accept 3000 PSI in the tank line but I would confirm this before ordering.

4) And yes running 11 GPM through a DG4V 3 size valve will produce heat.

Options might be to use a larger size electric valve (D05 / NG10) size. These can also be sublate mounted like the DG4V 3 D03 / NG 6 ) size.

Plumbing: The splitter valve must go first since it has the system relief valve in it. Balance of functions best fit for plumbing.

Roy

 

[muddstopper]

1) How are you going to drive the Vickers vane pump? They produce rated flow at 1200 RPM and typically do not have bearings in them that will with stand side loads from being belt driven. Suspect the Kohler engine operates at 3000 - 3600 RPM. Your vane pump will not operate at that speed and would be producing around 30+ GPM.

2) The manual "Splitter valve" shown in surplus center does not state if it is capable of "Power Beyond" duty.

3) The Eaton Vickers DG4V 3 valve may or may not allow pressure in the tank line. I think this model will accept 3000 PSI in the tank line but I would confirm this before ordering.

4) And yes running 11 GPM through a DG4V 3 size valve will produce heat.

Options might be to use a larger size electric valve (D05 / NG10) size. These can also be sublate mounted like the DG4V 3 D03 / NG 6 ) size.

Plumbing: The splitter valve must go first since it has the system relief valve in it. Balance of functions best fit for plumbing.

Roy

The vickers pump will be direct mount to the output shaft of the engine using L110 lovejoy coupleings. The engine is overkill for that size pump and will be throttled down to 1700rpms. The engine the pump came off of originally ran at 1750rpms. No need to run wide open.
Splitter valve will be first valve in line, but the other 2 valves I have also have built in reliefs.
The electric valve I already have, I have no plans to purchase another one. It was on the project that I robbed the engine off of. Just trying to use what I had on hand.
While working on the splitter today, I went ahead and ruled out the electric valve for the boom. When buying metal to build boom, I ended up with enough extra to just go ahead and make a light duty knuckelboom so I plan on just going ahead and using the stackvalve for the knuckelboom, the splitter valve for the splitter, and somehow plumb in the other valve to operate my 4way wedge lift. I will still have to reduce the return line on the splitter valve, which is what I wanted to advoid. Since this project has already taken a different direction, I think I am going to run out of control valves to operate all the functions. I might endup buying another valve to make all of this work.

 

[J_J]

Do each of these valves have PB?

You could also run a divider circuit for the wedge and log lift. All valve returns go to tank. A good return filter is required before the tank.

There is one thing to comprise, and another to come up with a good splitter arrangement for power, efficiency, and ease of use.

The first relief in the series circuit will set system pressure, and you can set the other valves the same or even lower for a branch circuit.

Do you know the max pump pressure in order to set the relief?

 

[oldnslo]

Mudstopper,
You may know this but at 1750 RPM your pump will be producing around 16.5 GPM if it is truly an 11 GPM cam ring. What model of Vickers pump do you have?
Example: V201*11** or 20V11A****

Roy

 

[muddstopper]

Vicker pump is V21011, rest of number is blurred and unreadable.
Prince valve s/n, 000036541, model number not available.
I am not sure how to tell if PB is on either valve, they both have in and out and circuit ports, splitter valve has relief. I am thinking in order to be power beyond, should there be one more port? Valve off of longarm mower, has three functions, two spring center, one I am not sure of, and a extra port that is plugged. I can post pics of the valves and pump if that will help. Not sure what info I need to provide to enable you to help me.

 

[J_J]

There may be markings on the valve. P, T, PB, BYD, A, B, etc. There may be two pressure and two tank ports The pressure port is usually by the relief valve.

Clean up valve and take pic of all sides.

Is the valve a mono block , one casting, or a sectional valve, separate spools put together with end pieces?

http://www.baumhydraulics.com/files/catalog/h09.pdf

 

[muddstopper]

JJ, Looking at the flow dividers, something similar to this one, https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-4158-2&catname=hydraulic Would be what I am thinking would work, but I am not sure I like the non adjustability of such a divider. The 2gpm would move my 2.5X6in cylinders from full retract to full extend in about 3 seconds. This might prove to be the speed I desire, or maybe not. I would prefer to have a certain amount of adjustability . Could I not use a flow control such as, https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-7960-12&catname=hydraulic , or https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-4169-12&catname=hydraulic to supply just the oil flow I would need to my small cylinders, yet still provide most of the flow to my splitter cylinder.
While looking again at my valves. I belief my splitter valve to not be a PB type valve, but my three function valve is. This valve is the valve that came off the longarm mower and is the valve that was working the cylinders I will be using on my boom lift for my splitter. In and out ports are 1/2inch. Fittings for cylinders are #4 jic. If I decide to use this valve first in line, and use its PB to supply power for my splitter valve, My question would be, will this valve carry the advertised 11gpm or guesstimated 16 gpm ,(depending on engine speed), of my Vickers pump. My hydraulic tank is only 10gal cap and which with all the extra functions of the boom addition, is starting to get to small in a hurry.

 

[J_J]

If your valve doesn't have PB, the return should go directly to tank, or you risk damage to the valve.

A lot of the return ports only have a low pressure of about 250 to 500 psi rating on the return/tank post. If you put your three valves in series, or have two branches, at least one of the valve is in potential trouble.

It could happen the first time you activate one of the downstream valves, and cause the upstream pressure to build up to the relief pressure of the first valve.

What I think you need is a log splitter valve with PB, and feed the three spool valve for the log lift and wedge, and then send the tank port return fluid to the tank.

You could split the PB out from the log splitter valve and send about 2 GPM to the three spool and the rest to filter and tank, and the tank out from the three spool would go to the return filter and reservoir.

 

[muddstopper]

I understand that the splitter valve should return to tank. I am attaching another pic of the 3spool valve. I think this valve has PB, altho the only markings on the valve are inlet and outlet. There are two ports for inlet, and three ports at the outlet side. Currently the valve has a fitting in 2 of the outlet ports and one port is plugged. The inside dia of the fittings is 27/64 as evidenced by the drill bit I inserted inside the fitting to measure size. Just to note, all three outlet ports are directly connected with no type of divider between the three ports. This connection leads me to think this may not be a PB valve

Question 1, is this a PB type valve?
Question 2, if valve is power beyond, will fitting size allow for oil flow fo 10-16 gpm.
Question 3, if valve is power beyond, and will handle stated oil flow, would it work to place this valve in front of the splitter valve.

Of course, if valve is not PB capable, then the above 3 questions dont need answering.

Question 4, if valve is not PB, and I dont have a lot of cash to purchase another valve that is PB ready, We are back to using the flow divider valve. Would a ajustable flow control valve such as https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-7960-12&catname=hydraulic work to divide the power between the two valves, or would I have to use a non adjustable divider control such as https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-4158-2&catname=hydraulic

 

[J_J]

You should be able to remove the port that is plugged and look inside and determine if it is setup for a PB sleeve or screw to make the valve a PB valve. If you have two in port and two tank ports and have one port plugged, that could be your PB outlet.

If it has PB installed, you can use air to test the valve, and see which ports have air flowing when you activate the levers. PB will have flow with no lever activated. A tank port will only have air with levers activated, and you put air in the work port.

Is this similar to the valve you have?

http://www.munciepower.com/clientuploads/directory/Resources/SP/SP03-02.pdf

If your valve can be converted to PB, it might look something like this.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...hd10-not-lifting-pounder-gresen-plug-page.jpg

 

[muddstopper]

The picture of the valve I posted looks nothing like the valve in your link. This make me wonder if the pics I am posting are even showing up. My valve is all one peice machined from one casting, it is not a sectional where each spool is its own seperate section.

Looking inside my valve, on the outlet port side, there are 3 outlet ports, two open and one plugged. I have removed the plug and all three ports are connected, I can blow air in any of the outlet ports and air will escape from the other 2 ports. I can stick a drill bit inside one port and see it in the other ports. I will have to look tomorrow and see if screwing a plug in one of the other outlet ports will block flow to one or both of the other ports, as suggested in your other link . http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...hd10-not-lifting-pounder-gresen-plug-page.jpg

Since there are two ports on the inlet side, side by side, is it possible that one port would be for open center and the other for closed center? I will attach a pic of the inlet side of the vale with both plugs removed.

 

[oldnslo]

Mudstopper,
In looking at the picture you posted of the 3-spool valve it is hard to determine if it has PB capability or not. From what you are describing I would say or not.

Another test with your air nozzle. Determine which tank port is common to pressure with the valves in there spring centered condition. Now shift one of the valves and blow air into the work ports of that valve. Does air come out the same tank ports? If yes it is not a PB configured valve. I do not know if PB is an option on that valve. Like J_J said, you will have to look and decide.

Yes this style of valve will provide you with priority flow adjustability. Just note, it also controls flow via pressure drop so I would expect around 100 -150 PSI loss minimum from this valve.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-4169-12&catname=hydraulic

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...0719d1270468429-vickers-v210-8-10-12-v210.pdf

If the above link works it is the parts breakdown for the Vickers V210 vane pumps. These pumps are obsolete and I do not remember what there operating parameters are. I.e. Max RPM and pressure.

Ry

 

[J_J]

The picture of the valve I posted looks nothing like the valve in your link. This make me wonder if the pics I am posting are even showing up. My valve is all one peice machined from one casting, it is not a sectional where each spool is its own seperate section.

Looking inside my valve, on the outlet port side, there are 3 outlet ports, two open and one plugged. I have removed the plug and all three ports are connected, I can blow air in any of the outlet ports and air will escape from the other 2 ports. I can stick a drill bit inside one port and see it in the other ports. I will have to look tomorrow and see if screwing a plug in one of the other outlet ports will block flow to one or both of the other ports, as suggested in your other link . http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...hd10-not-lifting-pounder-gresen-plug-page.jpg

Since there are two ports on the inlet side, side by side, is it possible that one port would be for open center and the other for closed center? I will attach a pic of the inlet side of the vale with both plugs removed.

Your valve is a mono-block valve, cast in one piece, and bored out to certain specs. The other valve was in another post about a post pounder, and that port in question was a PB type port.

You generally don't see two ports side by side that do the same thing. If one of those ports is an OUT port, there is probably another OUT port on top somewhere. Might even be beside the IN port. Does one of the ports on the end have a machined lip inside. PB ports are usually in the middle of the valve end piece.

Some valves can be converted between open center valve which has on open center plug in a port, and other will have a closed center plug in the same port to make the valve a closed center valve, that same port can also can be a PB port by blocking the return flow from the cyl, and allowing fluid to pass through for downstream operation.

Since you don't know for sure, I think I would take it to a hyd shop and they probably have seen that valve before, and can advise if it is a PB convertible port, and perhaps where to get a PB sleeve or screw to make it PB.

 

[muddstopper]

The more I look at the 3 spool valve, the more I believe it doesnt support PB, I just cant see any way to plug one port and hooking up a return to tank and still maintain pressure on the other port. I havent been able to locate a PB control valve for the splitting function for less than the cost of the flow control, https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.a...name=hydraulic

The nearest actual hydraulic shop I am aware of is at least a 100 miles from here, by the time I take the valve to them, pay for their expertise, I could have already purchased the flow control.


this is not exactly what I had in mind doing, but unless someone can come up with a better plan, or a lower cost splitter valve with PB, Looks like I will have to take that route,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

OR!, Trip to the scrapyard tommorrrow, they are scrapping a prentice loader, plenty of control valves on that thing.

 

[J_J]

Can you take a pic of the fitting you took out of the center port with the drill bit in it? Could you also put some more light in the ports and take another picture using the macro mode on your camera.

Are you using the center spool for anything. It looks like it is set up for an SA cyl.

You have 11 ports on that valve.
pressure ports =2
Out ports =2
work ports = 6, 1 is plugged
1 port = probably for PB

I believe someone was using the top side of the valve for the IN and OUT port, so it is a good bet that you have a PB port. It may be plugged with an open center plug. If that fitting has an o-ring and is deep, that is an indication for PB.

When they use a port for conversion, they use the same port for open center, or closed center or PB.

 

[muddstopper]

I really appriciate everybodies help, Thank you to everyone.

JJ, This valve was on a longarm mower. The arm had 3 cylinders, one was single acting. I wish I had a picture before I disassembled the mower. I suspect the work port that is plugged is the section that operated the single acting cyl. I do remember it had some sort of relief or check valve and am pretty sure it was plumbed to a accumilator. I looked for that relief or check valve yesterday but havent figured out just where I laid it.

I will be going to the shop in a little while and I am going to take a bunch of pics of every valve I have. Hopefully we can find something I can use.

 

[oldnslo]

mudstopper,
how many functions do you need?

1 = splitter
2 = wedge lift
3 = knuckle boom
Does the knuckle boom require more functions like a back hoe?

Just trying to get a picture of what you wanting to do and the number of functions required.

If your three section valve came off of a longarm mower it very well may not have PB capabilities.

Roy

 

[muddstopper]

When I started this project, i was only going to split wood and use a moveable 4way wedge for splitting, so only two functions where needed, To much time on my hands and a little tubing later, I decided to make a boom to pick up the large round to place on the splitter, so function #3. Not willing to leave well enough alone, and since I had the cylinders off the long arm, why not make a knuckel boom, function #4, which puts me at the limit of my combined control valves. Since I have also decide to use the stator rotor motor I have, I might as well make the boom swing under its own power, so now I am up to function #5, No valve so this function will have to wait. Of course with a knuckle boom I might build a grapple, function#6 and make it rotate, function#7. Outriggers, functions #8 and #9. And to think, I started out only wanting to split a little firewood.

Money is a factor right now, so i am thinking about just removing the boom and going back to my 2 basic functions and it seems I dont even have a PB valve to make that work.

I am posting some more pics of the 3spool valve in question.

First pic is of the outlet port side of the valve. As you can see, I put a red test probe inside the top port that can be seen in the right side port. On top of the valve you can see the plug that came our of the left side port, and the fitting that came out of the right side port.In the second pic, you can see the 2 side outlet ports with a white wire running thur the side of the port to connect the two. The third pic is of the lefthand side port that had the wire running out of it. Inside the port it is had to see, but the narrow dark colored band on the right side wall is what connects the 2 side ports.
The fourth pic is of the top of the valve showing the check valve that was attached to the middle spool.

Here are the results of the air nozzle test. Blowing air thur the inlet port with all spools centered, air moved unrestricted thru outlet ports. With spool shifted, air from inlet port would blow thru one side of the work port only. Blowing air thru opposit work port, air would blow thur outlet side of valve only. If spool is shifted in other direction, air flows are also reversed.

 

[J_J]

Your camera must not have a macro mode, close up mode. I still can not see inside the valve good enough to determine if the port is PB capable. I am looking for the indent like where the seat of a PB sleeve might fit, or a closed center plug might fit also..

Was there another valve connected to this valve, and if so , what was it's function. I don't believe they would have used two OUT ports.

My point here is that this valve seems to have three out ports here, and that is unusual unless one of them is PB capable.

That spool setup for SA can also control a DA cyl by removing the plug and using that port for the cyl.

Use this page as a ref, see if you can visualize a lip that would allow a sleeve to block fluid in the exhaust cavity, and only let fluid out from the core through a channel in the sleeve, otherwise, pass through fluid for downstream operation.