Water Heater advice needed

[BillG_in_TX]

Eddie,

One other thing to consider is the recovery rate. The most expensive tank at Lowe's will recover at 25.3 gph with 2-5500 watt elements. The others are rated at 20.7 gph with 2-4500 watt elements.

 

[Spiffy]

The temperature mixing after the water heater, then the pressure balancing at each shower (that way when someone flushes the toilet, the shower gets automatically adjusted instead of the hot blast and mad scramble to readjust twice...of course, that could kill some potential family fun /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif).

 

[slapshot]

Has anybody looked at or used a "Heat Pump Water Heater" looks like a really efficent way to heat water with electricity and shorten recovery time.
Check it...
http://www.nyletherm.com/waterheating.htm

-dave

 

[EddieWalker]

You guys are way ahead of me and the park. If I'm lucky, I'll be at this stage in six months, but for now I'm just looking for a single water heater for the living quarters.

Using them in series is something new that I'd never heard of. Definately worth exploring.

Bacteria isn't something I thought about or even heard about. I'm on city water with a six inch line into my place. Lots of water available!!!

Scalding was to be kept to a minimum with setting the temps down. Also recovery times should improve with timers on the shower controls. People take quicker showers if they have to keep pushing the button to keep the water running. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

This building has five public bathroom for guests, plus two in the living quarters. They could all be running at the same time. This is were it gets complicated.

Thanks for all the advice,
Eddie

 

[BlueRidge]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( For now, I'm only puting in one water heater. I've plumbed in a once inch CPVC line to distribute it down the road with a 1 1/2 inch supply. )</font>

Be careful to size that line correctly. With a bigger line, the water will be moving more slowly through the pipe, and therefore will lose more heat.

Also, the posts on using a series set-up got me thinking. How about a different kind of series system - a conventional tank heater to pre-heat the water, fed to tankless heaters at the point of use. You will be able to use smaller tankless units since they won't have to boost 40 degree water to useable levels, and you will never be down to COMPLETELY cold water, even if the tank fails outright.

Of course, the economic analysis of that setup will take some figuring...

BTW, I only know what I've read on the 'Net, but Marathon heaters look pretty good.

 

[kenmac]

Eddie , there are only a few water heater makers that make water heaters for everyone else . I think that whirlpool is a rheem W.H. the major brands that make the others are bradford white , state, rheem, ao smith.There may be others but, its hard to keep up who bought out who these days. Same way with hvac brands. The tank warranty is based on the size or the number of anodes that are installed in the tank to keep the tank from rusting out. This is the reason for the price difference as anodes aren't cheap.I don't know about your area but, I don't think you will want the hot water supplying the trailer park more than 125 degrees to keep from scalding.Electric water heaters these days keep up with hot water demands fairly well, unless you get gas high BTU imput or high recovery.I installed a rheem 50 gal. 60,000 BTU imput gas w. h. last week for a customer that had an elect . that kept running out of hot water. Good luck to you!

 

[Spiffy]

<font color="blue"> Be careful to size that line correctly. With a bigger line, the water will be moving more slowly through the pipe, and therefore will lose more heat. </font>

I wouldn't want to do all the math on that one, but since the exposed surface area to contained volume decreases, I don't think heat loss will be a huge concern. That first morning shower may take a bit longer to warm up to due more volume, but at [yeah, somebody will prove my math wrong here....should read the slip up I posted about a neutral line today] less then a gallon per 10' of the 1 1/2 pipe, I still wouldn't worry.

City water [I presume = chlorine] and presuming you'll have traffic year around; I wouldn't think twice about bacteria. If a slow season did cause problems, a good flush should take care of things.

Now on the other hand....that pressure valve I stumbled across while looking at bczoom's link to the mixing valve [the mixing valve does sound like a very good option at that price] has me too intrigued....but with the large pipe you're using, I doubt the effects are worth it [just don't tell my wife such a thing exists /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif].

 

[Spiffy]

<font color="blue"> How about a different kind of series system - a conventional tank heater to pre-heat the water, fed to tankless heaters at the point of use. You will be able to use smaller tankless units since they won't have to boost 40 degree water to useable levels, and you will never be down to COMPLETELY cold water, even if the tank fails outright.
</font>

I've pondered that before, but never seriously until you wrote it....showering on laundry day isn't a good plan in our house, so I liked the idea of never being completely cold. Oh well, don't tell my wife about these either [but especially not the balancing valve] or I'll have more house projects! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Bird]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Using them in series is something new that I'd never heard of )</font>

When mention was made of multiple water heaters, I just assumed they would be plumbed in series (not too bright on my part, huh?). As with many things, there are advantages and disadvantages perhaps. One of my brother used to have an 80' long mobile home. The water heater was in the rear corner, which put it right at the bath for the master bedroom, but the second bath was in the very front of the home, so it was an 80' run for the hot water line to that bathroom, and it took quite awhile to get hot water up there. So he installed a 6 gallon electric water heater under the lavatory in that front bathroom, in series with main water heater. Instant hot water in the front bath and long before that 6 gallons was used, the hot water had arrived from the main water heater.

So, as I see it, the advantage to plumbing multiple water heaters in series is that you'll always have plenty of hot water as long as everything is working. But if you ever have to shut off the water to work on something, you may be shutting down all your showers or bathrooms.

On the other hand, if you have multiple water heaters with different ones plumbed to different bathrooms or other outlets, and one system fails, you still have the use of the others while repairs are being made.

 

[bczoom]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( So, as I see it, the advantage to plumbing multiple water heaters in series is that you'll always have plenty of hot water as long as everything is working. But if you ever have to shut off the water to work on something, you may be shutting down all your showers or bathrooms.

On the other hand, if you have multiple water heaters with different ones plumbed to different bathrooms or other outlets, and one system fails, you still have the use of the others while repairs are being made. )</font>

Bird,

I mentioned and thought it may be a good idea to have a couple valves installed to allow a bypass for each HW tank. If one goes down or needs maintenance, just turn the valve to bypass and use the other tank(s).

Another potential advantage to the series setup is electric savings. If 1 tank is at 100, the other at 125 degrees, it'll use less electric than having both at 125 degrees.

 

[Bird]

Yep, Brian, a bypass valve is something I should have remembered, since my motorhome had one. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[graybeard451]

My take on water heater warranties is the price for a longer warranty is like buying snap-on tools, you pay more because chances are they will have to give you a second one free. So in effect you are paying for the replacement up front. But in a campground they may say it's commerical use and only warranty it for a year anyway.

Parallel piping will give more volume, series piping will give you hotter water but not more. Yes you could crank up the temp they mix it back down with a tempering valve but that will only help on the first hour draw because you would have more BTU's banked up. But the second hour draw would be the same. And hotter temps will stress the tank that much more. Commerical water heaters are made to run at higher temps for things like commerical dish washing.

Electric water heaters are the cheapest to buy but have the lowest recovery. Gas costs more to buy the tank but does have quicker recovery. A oil fired water heater has many times faster recovery but costs many times more to buy the tank because it has to be made stronger due to the many times higher flame temp. If you don't have natural gas piped in I would go with the electric myself. Of course if you were in the north, maybe I'd go fuel oil but I don't think you'll find many oil fired choices in TX.

just my .02 cents, Richard

 

[Sigarms]

Don't forget about the warranty "fine print".

Meaning that you you pay more money for a longer wrty, the wrty is only valid for that length of time.

Example.

You spend the extra money now and get a 10 year tank (2005). Tank leaks in 2014, you get a new tank, you now have only 1 year left on that water heater.

 

[EddieWalker]

Greybeard,

Thanks for the advice. If I understand this correctly, if I install them in series and use up the water, high demand periods, then all three water heaters will be struggling to keep up.

If I put them in parrallel, then all three will work equally to supply hot water and I'd be less likely to run out of hot water?

I've only seen parrallel systems done in other parks and hotels, never series, which is new to me. Could this be the reason why?


As to the warantee claims. If it fails, I'd return it as a home owner and not mention that it's used comercially. Not sure if that's legal or ethical, but it's my plan.

Lowes also has a Whirlpool 50 gallon water heater for $350 that has a lifetime warrantee. Would the elements and materials be that much better in it to justify the added price?

6 year warrantee is $200

9 year warantee is $270

12 yea warantee is $300

Lifetime warantee is $350

All 50 gallon Whirlpool electric water heaters.

Thanks,
Eddie

 

[OkeeDon]

If you are organized and disciplined enough to keep all your papers filed for ready access, and to remember that you have those lifetime warranties, and you plan to stay there for more than 12 years, then buy the lifetime warrantee.

My guess is that they are all the same water heater and will all fail in about 7 years. The extra money is so they can afford to give away a water heater to the folks who remember they have the warranty and who go to the trouble to exercise it. They are partly counting on the number of folks who will forget; those who will nopt be able to find the paperwork; and those who think it's too much trouble. The other possibility is that you might voluntarily forgo the warranty because something better has come out.

But then, I'm a little cynical about warranties... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[SLOBuds]

Are they going to allow you to have one of those extended warranties when you are using it in a commercial setting?

Many times the warranties limit you to non-commercial applications.

My opinion about the rest: if you are in it for the long haul, I'd take a further look at either solar or geothermal.

Martin

 

[jinman]

Eddie, when I was building my house, someone suggested I check with my coop electric company. I did and they had a great deal on water heaters. If you are on coop power rather than TXU, you might check with the coop power company and find they have a pretty good deal. Otherwise, I think you have a good handle on the best way to go for a do-it-yourself type of guy like yourself.

 

[graybeard451]

<<If I put them in parrallel, then all three will work equally to supply hot water and I'd be less likely to run out of hot water?

I've only seen parrallel systems done in other parks and hotels, never series, which is new to me. Could this be the reason why?


As to the warantee claims. If it fails, I'd return it as a home owner and not mention that it's used comercially. Not sure if that's legal or ethical, but it's my plan.

Lowes also has a Whirlpool 50 gallon water heater for $350 that has a lifetime warrantee. Would the elements and materials be that much better in it to justify the added price?>>

Yes, I think parrallel will reduce the chances of running out of hot water. Low-flow shower heads along with timers will also help that along with helping reduce the electric bill. In series, the first tank would be set around 100F so it wouldn't even start heating until you get to 80 or 90 F, by then you have a cold shower.

All the tanks and heating elements are the same, maybe a little more insulation, maybe two anonde rods instead of one but they are all the same. But, if you're going to buy them from Lowes, in 6 or 7 years when it plays out, the kid there is only interested in your paper work, not where you're using it. So what you're doing is buying one tank for $200 but buying two is $350 why not?

Good luck and I always check out your photos, my parents started camping when I was small and worked part time at a campground as a teenager. Richard

 

[jmc]

Consumer Report dissected water heaters to see the differences in warranty choices. Longer warranties have better construction according to CR. Link attached. Also other interesting facts about water heaters.

Consumer Report- water heater tips

 

[BobRip]

Have you looked at Marathon hot water heaters. They have 4 inches of foam insulation and a life time warranty.
With 3 hot water heaters your losses are going to be greater. Three tanks of the same capacity as one large tank have more loss, insulation thickness and type being equal.
Also consider insulating the pipes even the incoming pipes cause losses for some distance back. Saving energy actaully gives you a little more capacity.
Bob Rip