Water Well 101......A few questions from a water well newbie

[Richard]

We have a 8000+ wattage portable electric start generator specifically to run the well pump, refrigerator, and freezer, when ever the power goes out.

True (and to me, funny) story...

We moved in, I mentioned getting a backup generator for the house and my wife almost turned beet red laughing AT me about it.... She was (as was I) a city person.... and really hadn't thought it through.

Life goes on.... she's at the time, working a job in retail and it's Christmas Eve.....biggest day of their year (Jewelry)

She gets up, jumps in the shower.... BOOM, storm hits and power dies. The pressure tank slowly blubbered down to a trickle, then nothing.

She yells out my name.... she needs help. Seems the water died just as she happened to be all soaped up.... NOW what is she going to do??

I pulled out the kerosene heater, slapped a (very) large stainless steel bowel on it and loaded it with every ice cube in our freezer. Ice melted and now, she had some water to rinse herself off with.

She doesn't laugh so hard about a generator now.

 

[fried1765]

My pump and large tank is over 25 years old and for many years it was a family of 7, including filling a 24 ft above ground pool
a couple of times a year.
Sure hope I haven't jinxed myself now.

Large tank is GOOD...small tank......not so good!
Even with the large tank, when you fill the pool it might be best to bypass the tank, to keep the pump running, rather than cycling.

 

[MF RED in MT]

LOL, we think alike!
I just upgraded to 9000 unit so that I can also use a few ceramic heaters. (hate hauling wood).
My setup is permanently wired via a switch box and I keep the genny battery on an intelligent charger.
I hate pulling that cord to start the genny, besides I suffer from COPD.

Power outages are not a problem but merely an inconvenience for us.

When I roll the generator (on a Harbor Freight 4 wheel cart) out of the garage and to the end of the covered back deck for the first and only time each winter, I connect the 50 ft. extension cord, the 110v battery heater wrap, the 110v/12v battery tender, and the copper ground wire.

These item that connect to the generator stay on the covered back deck all year long as they are ran high/low and mostly out of sight.

It's my chore to haul the wood around here as I am told,

but it's not so bad because the front door has a covered deck that connects to a detached garage,

that has a 3'-0" door in the back of the garage to access a 32' x 12' wood shed,

and I use 2 garden wagons filled with fire wood that I pull slowly from the wood shed thru the garage and into the house,

and they sit next to the wood burning stove until empty,

then I repeat my chore as needed...

For a normal generator draw of power session, I usually only need to fill the generators 6 gallon tank once a day.

KC

F.Y.I. this winter the generator is still located in the garage, have had about 3 power outages and the longest one was about 90 minutes.

 

[MF RED in MT]

True (and to me, funny) story...

We moved in, I mentioned getting a backup generator for the house and my wife almost turned beet red laughing AT me about it.... She was (as was I) a city person.... and really hadn't thought it through.

Life goes on.... she's at the time, working a job in retail and it's Christmas Eve.....biggest day of their year (Jewelry)

She gets up, jumps in the shower.... BOOM, storm hits and power dies. The pressure tank slowly blubbered down to a trickle, then nothing.

She yells out my name.... she needs help. Seems the water died just as she happened to be all soaped up.... NOW what is she going to do??

I pulled out the kerosene heater, slapped a (very) large stainless steel bowel on it and loaded it with every ice cube in our freezer. Ice melted and now, she had some water to rinse herself off with.

She doesn't laugh so hard about a generator now.

Oh I hope your wife can now laugh about that episode.

Our first 3 years in the house the wife said we had the "dreaded turkey curse", because each time she was cooking a turkey in the oven, the power would go out, and stay out.

I had to finish cooking the dreaded turkey on the gas barbeque each time.

KC

 

[MF RED in MT]

I believe in the largest pressure tank you can reasonably install.
My well is a 150' deep the static water level varies from overflowing to 20' down in the casing.
The pump is a 1 1/2 hp, 15 gpm with a 100' lift, feeding a 60 gallon bladder tank, pressure switch is set at 40-60#.
The larger the tank the less the pump will cycle, which is easier on the pump.
I wouldn't be adverse to using a pair of pressure tanks to increase the run times, it would also increase the drawdown
volume available with power outages.
One feature of my pressure switch which can be aggravating is that it has a low pressure cutout,
if the system pressure drops to below 15 psi the switch drops out and will not restart the pump untill you manually over ride the
low pressure cut out. The idea is to shut the pump down in the event the main line breaks or the well gets emptied to protect the pump
and house. The problem is when you use enough water with a power outage you have to go down to the tank and over ride it to have water.

I agree with a larger tank, after 25 years of service I decided to replace the hot water heater and the pressure tank before there was a problem.

The original pressure tank was 40 gallons with a 30/50 pressure switch.

I installed a 52 gallon pressure tank (39.625" tall), a new 30/50 pressure switch, and new brass manifold with accessories required for a 42" limited installation height.


The tank specifications are:

Drawdown Gallons @ 20-40 PSI equals 19.2 gallons of water

Drawdown Gallons @ 30-50 PSI equals 16.1 gallons of water

Drawdown Gallons @ 40-60 PSI equals 14 gallons of water

KC

 

[Valveman]

Wow! You can sure tell what the pump manufacturers and Internet adds are pushing. Those variable speed pumps are a cash cow for the pump guys and manufacturers. That is because they cost a lot and don't last very long, which means it costs the home owner bunches more than it should. But they make it sound attractive and you buy into a Tar Baby.

Thirty years ago I also would have told you to use the largest tank you could get through the door. But that was 30 years ago. There is no need for large tank any longer. The larger the tank and the wider the on/off band (like 40/80 instead of 40/60), just means you will be experiencing low pressure for longer, until the pump comes on. Big tanks are not the answer either.

The pump manufacturers blacklisted the CSV in 1994. The CSV makes pumps last longer, uses smaller pressure tanks, and delivers strong constant pressure without the need for complicated and expensive variable speed type pumps or VFD's. So, you won't find any pump companies promoting Cycle Stop Valves, which is exactly why everyone needs a CSV.

How a Pressure Tank Works and why you need a Cycle Stop Valve on Vimeo

 

[TheGoose]

The funny thing about water wells is that it's not one size fits all. Some people have basements and crawl spaces for their equipment, some do not. Some deal with freezing and cold weather, some do not. Some people may have screen fed wells that make many hundreds of gallons, some have rock wells that only make a few gpm, and some have cisterns that have to be filled by another source like a spring, rainwater, or tank truck.

Not all tanks are created equal. For instance, when you say you have a "40" gallon tank are you referring to the total volume? If you have a hydro pneumatic tank that's different than a bladder tank.

Constant pressure systems can either use a constant pressure valve, like a cycle stop valve, and some can use a variable speed drive, or VFD, to vary the speed of the pump to match usage. Some VFD's use 3 phase motors, some do not. Some VFD's use a small tank, some do not.

Generally speaking, you want to match the size of your tank with the output of your pump. For instance, if your pump is a "10 GPM" pump that actually pumps 10 GPM you'll want a tank that has at least a 10 gallon drawdown at whatever pressure you are set for. A system that has a differential of 40/60 has a lower drawdown than one that is set for 30/50. PS..that 10 GPM pump may actually pump more than 10 GPM depending on the depth of the water or pumping level. 10 GPM is just where the pump is getting maximum efficiency.

Modern plumbing makes more of a difference in having good "pressure" than anything else in your system. As an example, would you rather have a shower of 1 GPM at 50 PSI or 50 GPM at 10 PSI?

 

[fried1765]

The funny thing about water wells is that it's not one size fits all. Some people have basements and crawl spaces for their equipment, some do not. Some deal with freezing and cold weather, some do not. Some people may have screen fed wells that make many hundreds of gallons, some have rock wells that only make a few gpm, and some have cisterns that have to be filled by another source like a spring, rainwater, or tank truck.

Not all tanks are created equal. For instance, when you say you have a "40" gallon tank are you referring to the total volume? If you have a hydro pneumatic tank that's different than a bladder tank.

Constant pressure systems can either use a constant pressure valve, like a cycle stop valve, and some can use a variable speed drive, or VFD, to vary the speed of the pump to match usage. Some VFD's use 3 phase motors, some do not. Some VFD's use a small tank, some do not.

Generally speaking, you want to match the size of your tank with the output of your pump. For instance, if your pump is a "10 GPM" pump that actually pumps 10 GPM you'll want a tank that has at least a 10 gallon drawdown at whatever pressure you are set for. A system that has a differential of 40/60 has a lower drawdown than one that is set for 30/50. PS..that 10 GPM pump may actually pump more than 10 GPM depending on the depth of the water or pumping level. 10 GPM is just where the pump is getting maximum efficiency.

Modern plumbing makes more of a difference in having good "pressure" than anything else in your system. As an example, would you rather have a shower of 1 GPM at 50 PSI or 50 GPM at 10 PSI?

Very "WELL" said !!!!

 

[Valveman]

I noticed this week when rinsing off some equipment the pressure from the hose dropped off dramatically every time it cycled.

Yeah there are lots of ways to skin this cat. Some people say they don't notice the swing in pressure from 30 to 60 or 40 to 60 during a shower. I think they have just gotten use to it, as most people notice and don't like the pressure going up and down during a shower. The one minute run time for tank sizing is just the minimum run time needed to dissipate the heat in the motor. A tank large enough to give you a minute of run time is bare minimum, two minutes is better, and continuously running a pump is best and will make a pump last longer. You can't put on a tank large enough to make the pump run continuously when water is being drawn, and the larger the tank, the more time the shower sees low pressure.

Some things have to be seen to be believed. Here are some people who have seen how a CSV works.
Reviews – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

 

[Valveman]

Oh and BTW, the pressure still goes up and down with those newer VFD type systems, especially the single phase and two wire systems. They don't really ever work like a variable speed pump. They just run the pump for a minute and then shut it off and let the tank drain. This is really no different than a pressure switch system, except for the soft start control. Supposedly with a soft starter you can start a pump as many times as needed. Yet that defeats the purpose of strong constant pressure, and it why some VFD systems still need a larger tank. They spend a LOT of money promoting those variable speed type pumps because as they say, "there is a sucker born every minute".