Water Well Pump Monitor???

[Xfaxman]

Yep, it is warmer down at the bottom. When I had the sender lower and closer to the tank, it showed 46 degrees in the box, with an overnight air temperature of 21.

 

[Zerk]

I bought a current sensor from Granger, Dayton Ohio around $100. I installed mine at the panel in the living room. Wire that goes to the breaker goes through the sensor, it is a ct, current transformer. Mine has a red light that come on. But it also has contacts that you could use to light up a light.

Normally open contact on the sensor, run the wire to where ever you want and put up a light. The contact is just a light switch. One wire to hot, other side of contact to light.

Sensor is adjustable. Run water, until pump comes on, turn dial until light comes on.

 

[Zerk]

If you are worried about freezing put an incandescent light in there or a heater. They also make thermostats that plug into an outlet and you plug a heater or heat lamp into. Most come on about 35, some turn off in 40s some 50. They are sold in products for heat tracing pipes or for chicken coops.

At work in electrical enclosures we run heaters in summer to get rid of condensation. This summer I am going to get some better venting in my well house, and I may put a heater in it.

I want to put a bigger pressure tank in, I may get it spray foamed, to get rid of condensation.



Looks like other people are doing current sensors too.

 

[Xfaxman]

Not worried about freezing after monitoring temperatures this winter.

I do have power in there if needed.

 

[Valveman]

If you are worried about freezing put an incandescent light in there or a heater. They also make thermostats that plug into an outlet and you plug a heater or heat lamp into. Most come on about 35, some turn off in 40s some 50. They are sold in products for heat tracing pipes or for chicken coops.

At work in electrical enclosures we run heaters in summer to get rid of condensation. This summer I am going to get some better venting in my well house, and I may put a heater in it.

I want to put a bigger pressure tank in, I may get it spray foamed, to get rid of condensation.



Looks like other people are doing current sensors too.

A larger tank will just cause more condensation. A larger tank is an old fashioned way of reducing the pump cycling. Xfaxman is using a 4.5 gallon size tank with a Cycle Stop Valve, and he will have better pressure and less pump cycling than if he had an 80 gallon tank and no CSV.

 

[Valveman]

Not worried about freezing after monitoring temperatures this winter.

I do have power in there if needed.

Warmth comes up from the earth to keep a valve box from freezing. The pipe just needs to be below the frost level, and the cover needs to be insulated. However, this insulation will cause condensation in the summer. You really need a little venting in the summer to keep condensation from turning the wires in the pressure switch green. The electrical is about the only thing the condensation will hurt. That little tank only holds 1 gallon of water. So the top of the tank is air space, which makes good insulation. You only need to keep the bottom of a bladder tank from freezing. The top could be sticking out in the open and would not freeze.

 

[Zerk]

A larger tank will just cause more condensation. A larger tank is an old fashioned way of reducing the pump cycling. Xfaxman is using a 4.5 gallon size tank with a Cycle Stop Valve, and he will have better pressure and less pump cycling than if he had an 80 gallon tank and no CSV.

My flow is slow. So I want a bigger tank, I only have a 12 gallon, most homes have 20 or 30.


I don't understand how a 4.5 gallon tank causes a pump to cycle less.

 

[Xfaxman]

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I don't understand how a 4.5 gallon tank causes a pump to cycle less.

Let's say you turn on a faucet, the water flows out of the pressure tank, the water pressure slowly drops to the cut on pressure of the pressure switch, 40 lbs., it turns on the pump, pressure slowly rises to 50 lbs, the CSV acts like a pressure regulator, holding the pressure at 50 lbs., at whatever gallons per minute flow is required. Let's say an hour later another faucet is opened, the pressure stays at 50 lbs., but the gpm flow rate increases to whatever the second faucet requires. More time passes, one of the faucets is turned off, the flow rate decreases, but the pressure stays at 50 lbs, the water has been running for several hours, but the pump only started once. Now close the the other faucet, the pressure slowly rises as the small pressure tank fills, at 60 psi. the pressure switch turns off the pump.

One key thing to understand is, the pump does not run at full RPM and full current draw, it only runs fast enough, using only enough current to provide the required flow.

 

[Valveman]

Let's say you turn on a faucet, the water flows out of the pressure tank, the water pressure slowly drops to the cut on pressure of the pressure switch, 40 lbs., it turns on the pump, pressure slowly rises to 50 lbs, the CSV acts like a pressure regulator, holding the pressure at 50 lbs., at whatever gallons per minute flow is required. Let's say an hour later another faucet is opened, the pressure stays at 50 lbs., but the gpm flow rate increases to whatever the second faucet requires. More time passes, one of the faucets is turned off, the flow rate decreases, but the pressure stays at 50 lbs, the water has been running for several hours, but the pump only started once. Now close the the other faucet, the pressure slowly rises as the small pressure tank fills, at 60 psi. the pressure switch turns off the pump.

One key thing to understand is, the pump does not run at full RPM and full current draw, it only runs fast enough, using only enough current to provide the required flow.

Thanks for that excellent explanation Xfaxman. It was almost perfect, except for the part about the pump not running at full RPM. The current draw does decrease, the same as if you had slowed the RPM of the pump, but you don't have to reduce the RPM of a pump to get the amps to decrease. The amps of a pump/motor decrease naturally when the flow is restricted. So the CSV just restricts the flow from the pump, and the amps decrease on there own. All centrifugal type pumps do this. It is one of the most counter-intuitive things about pumps. You would think restricting the flow from a pump would make it work harder, not easier. But just the opposite is true.

Variable speed drives have become widely used in the pump industry because most people misunderstand this fact. Only people who really understand pumps know that a variable speed drive is just trying to trick a pump into doing something it already does naturally. Because the amps will drop by just restricting a full speed pump with a valve, reducing the RPM does not save energy. But the people who make and sell variable speed drives don't want you to know a simple little valve can do the same thing, because they make a lot of money on this misconception.

 

[Valveman]

My flow is slow. So I want a bigger tank, I only have a 12 gallon, most homes have 20 or 30.

I don't understand how a 4.5 gallon tank causes a pump to cycle less.

Your flow maybe "slow". But even people I know that really conserve water use at least 100 gallons per day. The average house with no outside or extra uses of water still uses an average of 300 gallons per day.

Your 12 gallon tank only holds 2 gallons of water. The 20 or 30 gallon tank you think you need only hold 5 and 7 gallons respectively. What good is a tank that holds 5 or 7 gallons of water in a house that uses and average of 300 gallons per day? The pump would still have to come on (cycle) 60 times a day to refill that 20 gallon tank for a 300 gallon per day house. Your water comes from the pump and well, not the pressure tank. You have millions of acre feet of water stored in the ground waiting for you to need it. All a pressure tank has ever been for, is to reduce the number of times per day the pump has to start (cycle) to supply the water you need. So when you have a CSV to eliminate the cycling, you don't need a very large tank.

With a system like the one Xfaxman described that uses water for hours at a time, it is easy to see the advantage of a Cycle Stop Valve. It just keeps the pump running continuously as long as the water is being used, instead of cycling dozens or hundreds times to produce the same amount of water.

With a home that has "slow flow" or doesn't use much water, it is harder to explain. The 1 gallon in the small tank must be used before the pump will start. So re-filling ice makers and washing hands won't cause the pump to start. The pump will have to come on to refill a 1.6 gallon flusher. But if you stand there and flush 100 times in a row, the CSV just keeps the pump running until you stop doing that. If you only flush once, 30 times per day, the pump will cycle 30 times per day. However, with a CSV the pump only cycles once for a long shower or to fill the washing machine. This eliminates 50 cycles per day, so the overall cycles are still less than if you have a larger tank and no CSV.

There are many benefits to eliminating all those pump cycles. The CSV creates stronger constant pressure in the shower, causes washing machines to fill faster, eliminates water hammer from the pump, etc. But being able to use a much smaller and less expensive tank, and making the entire pump system last longer are some of the best reasons for a CSV.