Welder/Plasma supply wireing, need homework graded

[Sberry]

Franz mention legal liability thrown in the manual. Consdering they make millions of these machines for75 years, they print millions of manuals and millions were wired according to the manuals they wouldn't have been sued regular if it was a problem. It's safe enough they allow it in to the code.
The biggest issue they had was allowing lighter materials on traditional 50 circuits. They came up with the MVP adapter to allow 14 cords to be plugged to 50. When its used on common 120v they can use the breaker for fault. They could in theory do it if they limited it to 30A breakers but would take a special cor it which can be done but would eliminate a generation of existing wiring and require 2 different circuits for cord and plug welding machines.
What they do and come up with is pretty slick. Ask me 20 years ago if they come up with all this I would have said how. Lot of forward and backwards in cord/plug/wire size.

 

[user.69169]

Do we figure the engineers at Lincoln and Miller dont know what they are doing when they size the conductors for a welder?

You seen the collection EEOC quota fillers ITW employs to do engineering for Miller & HoFart?

Lincoln upped security in Cinci, can't get inside any more for good lookaround.

Enginincompoops of 21st century nothin but screen looker atters who say no till computer tells dem yes.

35 year old engineer I know tells story of 20 engineers circling Radar trailer for week looking for spot to mount air compressor dat runs outriggers. Since he junior, nobody asks him. When dey finally do he asks why compressed air from road tractor pulls de trailer can't be used. None of de fine college boys knew trailer had air brakes or what air brakes work from.

 

[WranglerX]

I also have one circuit similar for chop saw. Its problematic and there is no good other solution really. Only real legal way might be to change to a 30 end and use a 30 outlet but its rather awkward and as long as the circuit isnt used for other 120 loads its safe. The up side to this is the saw and your Hobart will handle or work safely on a 30. Most 120V wont, some air comps will. When this is done a needs a 14 cord. You went beyond, nothing wrong with it but could have used the 12.

True with twelve, but when at wire rack, glanced down and there was a 6-8 foot piece of wire, 10 gauge, that was already cut, coiled and tagged (guess it was cut then whoever didn't want it) .... Easy enough to just pick it up and take to cashier....

Larger than necessary, you bet, but no harm no foul....

Dale

 

[WranglerX]

I can most certainly agree with you based on the circuits that you have described in this thread. No way a 50 amp breaker is going to protect 12 AWG wire. But if things are sized properly and per code the breaker will most certainly protect the wiring and everything else in the circuit from a fault, overload or short circuit. In the definition below the wire is part of the electrical circuit. Please stop promoting something you have read in a Welder User Manual. Someone could take this advise and end up burning their house down.


A circuit breaker is an automatically operated electrical switch designed to protect an electrical circuit from damage caused by excess current from an overload or short circuit. Its basic function is to interrupt current flow after a fault is detected.

Keep in mind welding circuits come under different section of NEC codes than ranges and air conditioners and air compressors and electric dryers.... This is where knowledge of what type of system you are working on is imperative....

This is were I find most advice on these farmer forums wrong or dangerous.... Take you argument to a true "electrical forum" and see what response you get....

Dale

 

[Sberry]

Going to throw some irony in here, I don't disputing any previous remarks, but I have Hobart Handler 140, manual states 20 amp circuit ..... Ironically welder on 4 (highest out put setting) it trips 20 amp breaker..... Thought maybe faulty breaker so I swapped with another 20 amp breaker.... Same problem..... So after some investigation I looked at KVA specs in manual and it calculated out to actually be a 24.5 amp draw , not the 20 amp manual states at mid range settings..... SO... Here come's the issue some will have heart burn over..... Trucked off to local hardware store, got new 30 amp breaker and about 6 feet of 10/2 W ground, and best quality (single) 20 amp receptacle I could get..... Wires up new 30 amp breaker with 10/2 wire to 20 amp receptacle, labeled circuit dedicated to welder only.... Now the results, run bead for what ever time required for project, check the receptacle/plug combination for heat factor, and nothing to be concerned about and I also use a 12 gauge 25 foot extension cord with MIG machine again no heat issues, and the 14 gauge line cord supplied with welder does not show any signs of over heating.....

Up on investigation house was built in 1991 in back woods county of Cali where there was not much code inspection at the time and whole house is wired with 14/2 & ground (except for 240 AC circuits) ..... Yes 15 amp breakers on lighting circuits and 20 amp breakers on receptacles circuits..... House is wired pretty much to code keeping receptacle circuits and lighting circuits separate, GFIC circuit in kitchen and bathroom correct, but ignored the outlet about 2 feet away from sink in garage for washer and dried (also dedicated receptacle on 20 amp 14 gauge circuit)....

So bottom line it probably not so much on theoretical, but quality materials, installed with understand of about current carrying capacities of conductors and what NEC and common sense dictates....

My Background, 38 years in AC and DC power system in telecommunications..... And it was always a standard, "when in doubt about conductor size always go at least one size larger"....

Dale

You touch on something here about how they class these machines and been wringing every drop out of them. The 24A is the legal limit can pass thru that cord for that long.
A 225 buzzer comes 12 cord and is about 48A in at rated output . Very few run that hard, real world is closer to 40 than 50 especially at 240+ volts. A pro type could chuck rods for a while in longer than it's listed cycle though. Did it a dozen times over the early years, build up a time or 2 some 1/8 7018 AC at 120A.and a couple times we do some truck bed body and lining. 7014 at 145, flat and down handful of rods a time and machines dam near glowing.

 

[Sberry]

I am not sure about the well other than it's basically manufactured under engineering and not sure I understand the question about the welder. Very few are continuous and are duty cycle rated at a specific output. They can go above rated but it lowers the duty
Buzzers were rated at max.

 

[workinonit]

Do we figure the engineers at Lincoln and Miller dont know what they are doing when they size the conductors for a welder?

That's not my point. I understand the logic behind what those manuals and 630 are referring to and there is a reason for that. But that has nothing to do with an individual/homeowner/weekend warrior wiring things for their shop. You stated that you wouldn't wire anything to those specs so why do you even bring it up. It is bad practice and there is nowhere else in the code that it is allowed and it is not meant for a homeowner with a shop. No matter what any engineer at Lincoln or Miller have to say that is bad practice and essentially does not meet code. It's not that hard to size the conduit and wire correctly and the cost is insignificant. Never ever lug a 12 AWG to a 50 amp breaker. That's just plain stupid. I really wish you would stop with this.

 

[workinonit]

Keep in mind welding circuits come under different section of NEC codes than ranges and air conditioners and air compressors and electric dryers.... This is where knowledge of what type of system you are working on is imperative....

This is were I find most advice on these farmer forums wrong or dangerous.... Take you argument to a true "electrical forum" and see what response you get....

Dale

So you are a proponent of lugging 12 AWG on a 50 amp breaker? Farmer forum, electrical forum or wherever, that's just bad advise to novices. I'm a licensed electrical contractor and I can tell you that won't fly anywhere no matter what 630 says. Local codes supersede NEC and that is one article that won't muster. Besides that, what responsible person would do that. That's basically reserved for industrial applications and having worked in the industrial world for 40 years I can say that it won't fly there. So you guys do you and I will do it right. This is the absolute stupidest thread I have ever been sucked into. Besides that I don't understand half of what is said or referenced. What I will say to whomever is reading this is not to follow this idiotic advise. If you are wiring something go get a professional opinion from a licensed electrical contractor and don't take advise from a bunch of yahoos on a tractor forum. Y'all have fun.

 

[WranglerX]

So you are a proponent of lugging 12 AWG on a 50 amp breaker? Farmer forum, electrical forum or wherever, that's just bad advise to novices. I'm a licensed electrical contractor and I can tell you that won't fly anywhere no matter what 630 says. Local codes supersede NEC and that is one article that won't muster. Besides that, what responsible person would do that. That's basically reserved for industrial applications and having worked in the industrial world for 40 years I can say that it won't fly there. So you guys do you and I will do it right. This is the absolute stupidest thread I have ever been sucked into. Besides that I don't understand half of what is said or referenced. What I will say to whomever is reading this is not to follow this idiotic advise. If you are wiring something go get a professional opinion from a licensed electrical contractor and don't take advise from a bunch of yahoos on a tractor forum. Y'all have fun.

Best advice you have given in thread....But we are not yahoos....

You are pretty good of reading in something that is not there........ NEVER did I say 12 gauge was good on a large amperage 240 volt system.....

Firm believer in large conductor that meet or exceeds design specifications...... Some where back I stated that in the industry I can from it was 'IF in doubt of conductor size, go up in size"....

Dale

 

[Sberry]

Why bring it up? Because some of the things around this are not very well understood. Learning the how and the why is important to understanding some fundamentals about circuit design and goes along with the internals of the equipment. Secondly, some of the concepts here are rather rudimentary and it doesnt do anyone any good for it to simply be a cheering section,,, yes,,, you go girls when someone says,,, I did it this way so its good when it isnt and missing pieces. Some of it is obvious as daylight and there is some ruisk of being rude but no easy way to tell someone they are full of **** and they dont know, they seem to know what the NEC says despite canty call it by the right voltage and dont really even know what the wires are called. Havnt read the front of the book let alone toward the back where some of it is and seem to be able to tell what is written for who then,,, the manuals are written for who? For some and not the person buying it Its just jibberish from the half educated.
On top of it they aint goona learn cause already know. We got something they do allow,,, thats no good but something they dont,,, a simple recept type is adored says a lot. " I did it this way" so it must be right has never made anything right. We have a coupkle ideas in this thread outright dangerous but due to the fact the understanding of what actually happens is so shallow they get passed over. Overkill 3 steps at one point doesnt make up for the weak link in another.
These are the kinds of forums that NEED the help, professional electric forums dont. So much is done diy with little to no real training or supervision its the place for it. Sorry some get a few feelings hurt but there are other guys that read this and learn and these types of forums are responsible for 1000's of guys now know about installing a simple screw in the right place. Excuse me for being suspect and wondering about the extensive knowledge of a deep complicated subject when someone calls it 110 and really doesnt know 1 basic wire from another.
I even offer up a couple simple questions, 100 posts, dozen people, several claim to do this work regular, not 1 answer. Telling others what inspectors look for, all of tghis learned without ever cracking the book.
Here uis another thing. I like (removed), we go back but he aint changed a lick. We are a lot alike so I can identify but there is a slight difference. Most and probably all engineers are smarter than I am, they just are. (removed) is smarter than all of them put together. I got some stories too, i been where they didnt have the experience but eventually they get it and they know more than I do and can calculate stuff only be a wet dream. I ran in to one a while back, brought a repair. He cant find the operating end of a screw driver but he made a quick sketch and found interference I would not have seen till I was nearly done, something he see in a glance even upside down and sketch in a minute, never occurred to me.