Went solar

[MossRoad]

On the topic of the color of CFL and LED lights: CFLs use mercury gas that's ionized and emits ultra violet light. Then a phosphorous coating on the bulb converts the ultra violet into visible light. A "white LED" also produces ultra violet light and also uses a phosphorous coating to shift that to visible light.

So the composition of the phosphorous coating determine the color temperature of the light. You see this in regular long-tube florescent as a "cool white" or "warm white" type of bulb. The "cool white" phosphorous is cheaper to make and has a higher efficiency as far as the conversion process is concerned. A lot of LED flashlights use "cool white" (higher color temperatures) to get more light out of them.

There are CFLs now that have an incandescent coloring, once that match the sun, and ones that are the "cool white". LEDs are also being produced in different color temperatures. The ones I used match the sunlight color spectrum. It's weird to have all that diffuse lighting in the room and have it be the same color as daytime when the room is lit by diffuse sunlight, but it's dark out. Incandescents also set our perception of what a "light should look like". Who knows, for the next generation all light might be considered perfect when it has the same color balance as the sun, which looks decidedly blue next to an incandescent bulb. If anyone remembers Ecktachrome slide film, it was available in "daylight" and "inside" versions (if I remember that correctly...)

Moss, tnx for the feed back. If/when I drone on too much just send me a PM...

Pete

I have two degrees in electronics. Your posts are music to my brain. :thumbsup: :cloud9:

 

[MossRoad]

Both, Mr. Lichen Lane.

The inverter for the water pressure converts to a charger when the generator is on (I have it limited to 100 amps 12VDC). If the water pump comes on, it is powered by the gen.

The appliance inverter does the same but I have it limited to 80 amps 12VDC and anything on is then running off of the generator while the inverter is charging the battery bank.

The entertainment+ lighting+ A/C inverter doesn't charge (it could, but the generator input isn't hooked up). I prefer electronics not get the "hand-off" when an inverter switches from inverting to charging and back, plus generator frequency and voltage can vary a little so this supplies cleaner power.

Our Maytag Neptune washer (on the appliance circuit) doesn't like this "hand-off". Too much electronics in it. We can't start or stop the generator when washing. If the washer starts while on generator, we don't shut off the gen until the wash is done. If the washer starts on inverter, we don't start the gen until the wash is done (or we can shut off the washer, start the gen, the restart the washer). The "hand-off" (either way) causes the washer to 'lock up' and never go into spin (when that happens we unplug it for 1/2 hour and then it's ok).

I just installed my first LED light last week. It's 80 lumens and uses 2 1/2 watts. I installed it in the range hood (yeah, I considered the heat, but it really doesn't ever get very hot where the light sits... I'm definitely NOT going to try an LED for the light in the oven). The light output is about the same as the bulb it replaced after going through the plastic diffuser. This is a light we leave on all evening until bedtime, and the little 40W incandescent was just too much power to waste for a "night light" in the kitchen.
That little bulb used as much power as each of the two big fluorescents in the kitchen and almost as much as the CFL there too (it's 27w for "60w of light").

Phil

Off-grid since 1977

Thanks. Do you have any links to the LED bulbs? I am interested in testing in my home. Also, are they dimmable? I have to have dimmable!!! :laughing:

 

[forgeblast]

LED Downlights, LED Ceiling Lamp : LED Light Bulbs, Shopping
this was one place i was looking at.

 

[weedpharma]

I have only read the first 6 pages of this post so apolagise if my point has been discussed.

When it comes to payback period, most have simply refered to $$$$$. What about the environmental saving? The panels etc pay back their manufacturing energy within a few years, from then they provide energy without contributing greenhouse gases and polutants due to burning coal and oil.

What about your car? Or refrigerator? Or big plasma TV? (Or tractor.) Do you ask yourself "What is the payback period?" Treat the PV system as another appliance - one that supplies power. Then decide if you want this "appliance" and work out what you can afford.

I have had my 2kw system for 11 months (after a 1.5kw for 1 yr). My average daily power generation over the last 11 months is just over 1 kwhr per day above my average usage. I am more than happy with my decision to go solar.

Weedpharma

 

[clemsonfor]

I have only read the first 6 pages of this post so apolagise if my point has been discussed.

When it comes to payback period, most have simply refered to $$$$$. What about the environmental saving? The panels etc pay back their manufacturing energy within a few years, from then they provide energy without contributing greenhouse gases and polutants due to burning coal and oil.

What about your car? Or refrigerator? Or big plasma TV? (Or tractor.) Do you ask yourself "What is the payback period?" Treat the PV system as another appliance - one that supplies power. Then decide if you want this "appliance" and work out what you can afford.

I have had my 2kw system for 11 months (after a 1.5kw for 1 yr). My average daily power generation over the last 11 months is just over 1 kwhr per day above my average usage. I am more than happy with my decision to go solar.

Weedpharma

Yep i have a wahing machine cause its more convienient and cheaper to wash and dry at my house. I figure that i kept my wifes old car instead of selling it for $1500 cause i figure i would save that in gas in 2-3 years by driving it , and less if fuel jumps back to 3.50/gallon. Yep i bought a tractor cause its cheaper to bushhog my own fields and plant my own food plots vs hiring out at $80/hr.

So yes with myself having a masters in an area of economics i do consider the paybacks of all my purchases and the fiscal reposnsibility of buying anything.

I work for the gov. we buy hybrids (at work) cause were forced to not because they make sense. The saturn Vue we have gets no better hardly than a chevy blazer it replaced and it costs us more per month than the 4x4 tahoes.

I commute on the highway to wory 25 miles oneway. I get 33mpg in my 97 saturn you can barely do better in a new vehicle that is smallertoday. Hybrids get worse economy on the highway than the city as there designed to run in traffic at slower speed. You are better of in my case to buy a new honda civic in stead of a civic hybrid once you figure the higher initial price (maybe not this next year or this year with the state and local tax credits) and the fact that the battery packs supposedly have a 6-7 year life before replacement (at least what the saturn vue recommends and i think the battery pack i was quoted $1500 or so).

So in a long winded answer i do consider the economic payback. I cant justify spending $150K on solar pannels today with the interest cost that i would incur buying them, plus the fact that no one would ever lend us that type of unsecured loan and if i got it it would be pushing 6-8%!!!!

 

[RobertN]

You know, I did not really look much at that.

I have worked High Tech for 25 or so years. Never in a Fab, but with wafers, and have been in wet/chem labs.

I know, I would not want to work in a wafer Fab. Man, talk about nasty chemicals.

I do not know how long it takes to get payback when considering all those nasty chemical and production stuff.

I have only read the first 6 pages of this post so apolagise if my point has been discussed.

When it comes to payback period, most have simply refered to $$$$$. What about the environmental saving? The panels etc pay back their manufacturing energy within a few years, from then they provide energy without contributing greenhouse gases and polutants due to burning coal and oil.
Weedpharma

 

[Loren49]

A short comment on Tax Incentives for alternative energy setups - If anyone cares to do a bit of research they will find millions (billions) of dollars of breaks, financial incentives and just plain give aways to Oil Companies and the things that are used by the fossil fuel industries (also tons of government dollars to the nuclear industry including the unending amounts to try to find a safe way to deal with nuclear wastes)
So to cry foul at the incentives for solar and wind is a bit questionable.

Loren

 

[clemsonfor]

A short comment on Tax Incentives for alternative energy setups - If anyone cares to do a bit of research they will find millions (billions) of dollars of breaks, financial incentives and just plain give aways to Oil Companies and the things that are used by the fossil fuel industries (also tons of government dollars to the nuclear industry including the unending amounts to try to find a safe way to deal with nuclear wastes)
So to cry foul at the incentives for solar and wind is a bit questionable.

Loren

i was not crying that the tax incentives for electic cars are a good or bad thing, i still dont want one right now. If oil and such was not subsidised we would have no economy, or it would resemble russia or such, we saw what almost $4/gallon gas did to the economy and if we were even $.50/gallon more that puts you over $3 already and crashing down here we come!

 

[Loren49]

Making fuel artificially less costly than it really is leads to waste and inefficiency. Remember that for every artificial cent you save at the pump, taxes and/or the deficit goes up. Masking the true cost is a loser in the long run.
Look at the energy efficiency of cars, homes and businesses in countries where fuel costs are more realistic. It is arguable that in many of those places the quality of life is similar to ours. It can't be changed in one day but we should slowly move to more realistic pricing up front.

Loren

 

[Larry Caldwell]

The reason I am concerned about payback time is this...
My last two years with the wood burner providing winter heat my gas and electric bills combined are averaging about $1500.00 per year.

In 30 years, that will be $45K (at current rates). I don't think I can touch a solar system in this climate that will produce enough electricity to cover all of our needs (that gas and electric currently provide) for anywhere near that. We are in a lousy area for solar, with 293 partly cloudy to cloudy days each year. We also average a tad over 80" of snow per season. We also get 42 days of thunderstorms annually and damaging hail every few years.

I think I would be better off spending the money on super insulating the house for the winters and converting my gas water heater to wood.

About half that cost is domestic hot water. Solar hot water is a lot cheaper than PV solar. Add coils in or behind your wood burner with a decent sized solar storage tank and you will be nearly 100% solar on your hot water - trees are just big, cheap solar panels. You will have to install an active rather than passive solar system, with circulation pumps to the solar panels and the wood burner. The control systems are simple: when the solar panels are hotter than the tank, circulate to the solar panels. When the wood burner is hotter than the tank, circulate to the wood burner. When neither one is hotter, shut down and switch to gas fired hot water as a backup.

Be sure to install a tempering valve on the outflow from the solar tank, or you might burn yourself, or melt some plumbing fixtures. If you feed into a conventional water heater for backup,they have high temperature limits on water inflow, typically around 140 degrees. You may also need to install an extra radiator to cool the tank if it gets too hot. I can shut down the solar panels in the summer, but haven't figured out how to shut down the coils to the wood stove without boiling the heat exchange fluid, so I just switch that loop to an outside radiator. The cats love it! Standard water heater pressure-temperature relief valves don't seat right after they pop off, and will drip forever. Be sure to plumb it to an outside location that will accept some water.

I spent a few thousand on energy upgrades of this 1971 ranch style house, including new windows, new doors, and upgraded insulation. Wood heat with a heat pump backup, so we have central air conditioning all summer. Electricity is our only utility, and we heat/cool/pump water/light/cook for about $700 a year. That doesn't count wood, because I cut my own.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Clemsonfor: We pay 10 cents per KWH for what we use, we make 16 cents per KWH on what we produce.

Which means your neighbors are paying your power bill. All those tax rebates came out of somebody else's pocket too. I don't blame you for slurping up the gravy train, but I think it's really bad public policy. For local installations, the money would be better spent on improved efficiency.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

i use a 13W incandesant on the range hood and has been the same light for 2-3 years stays on all night and sometimes all the next day

Very low power incandescents have extended life. One of Thomas Edison's original light bulbs still works. It's about a 2 watt.

Very low power CFLs also seem to run for a long time. I have three outside lights that I converted to 7 watt CFLs over a decade ago. I just this year had to replace one of them.

 

[clemsonfor]

Very low power incandescents have extended life. One of Thomas Edison's original light bulbs still works. It's about a 2 watt.

Very low power CFLs also seem to run for a long time. I have three outside lights that I converted to 7 watt CFLs over a decade ago. I just this year had to replace one of them.

I actually said it wrong 13 w if for 60 watt replacement bulbs and this is a 40 watt replacement cfp so i guess its more like 7-9 watts.

 

[eepete]

Which means your neighbors are paying your power bill. All those tax rebates came out of somebody else's pocket too. I don't blame you for slurping up the gravy train, but I think it's really bad public policy. For local installations, the money would be better spent on improved efficiency.

Earlier on in this thread the topic of tax rebates and energy subsidies came up, so I won't repeat here again.

As for the money I get, the utility "pays" me at the burden rate which is around 5 cents a kilowatt hour or they can credit (a form of net metering) me at that rate, I chose the credit/net metering. Another company (NC GreenPower) pays me 15 cents per KWH, which is taxable income to me. They turn around and sell that power to people who want to buy green power. For example, if someone had a meeting or concert and wanted to advertise that it was a carbon neutral event, they buy the power. Others just buy blocks of green power because they want to. So the net metering and the after-tax sale value is about 16 cents per KWH.

So I don't consider that I'm slurping up the gravy train. I don't like that idea, and (for example) I don't take payments I could get for not growing crops on my land from the USDA. Can't complain about the state of things and then turn around and be part of the problem.

Whether you believe in green power or climate change here I claim is not the top of discussion. What is going on here is classic free market capitalism where some is selling something and someone is buying it. Someone is wanting to pay above market rates for green electricity, I am producing it and selling it. And with regard to the money I get for the power, this is not my neighbors paying my bill but rather a simple capitalistic transaction which is taxed and produces revenue for the government.

Larry, I hope this better explains the arrangement. Regarding the CFLs, I too have found that the 13W and smaller have longer life than the higher power ones, it goes back to the heating problems discussed already. Another option for incandescence is the "long life" bulbs, which is really a bulb that either has a higher voltage rating (like 130 Volts) or just trades off efficiency (lumens per watt) in exchange for longer life. Simply put, when you don't burn as bright you burn longer, be it bulbs or life .

Pete

 

[MossRoad]

About half that cost is domestic hot water. Solar hot water is a lot cheaper than PV solar. Add coils in or behind your wood burner with a decent sized solar storage tank and you will be nearly 100% solar on your hot water - trees are just big, cheap solar panels. You will have to install an active rather than passive solar system, with circulation pumps to the solar panels and the wood burner. The control systems are simple: when the solar panels are hotter than the tank, circulate to the solar panels. When the wood burner is hotter than the tank, circulate to the wood burner. When neither one is hotter, shut down and switch to gas fired hot water as a backup.

Be sure to install a tempering valve on the outflow from the solar tank, or you might burn yourself, or melt some plumbing fixtures. If you feed into a conventional water heater for backup,they have high temperature limits on water inflow, typically around 140 degrees. You may also need to install an extra radiator to cool the tank if it gets too hot. I can shut down the solar panels in the summer, but haven't figured out how to shut down the coils to the wood stove without boiling the heat exchange fluid, so I just switch that loop to an outside radiator. The cats love it! Standard water heater pressure-temperature relief valves don't seat right after they pop off, and will drip forever. Be sure to plumb it to an outside location that will accept some water.

I spent a few thousand on energy upgrades of this 1971 ranch style house, including new windows, new doors, and upgraded insulation. Wood heat with a heat pump backup, so we have central air conditioning all summer. Electricity is our only utility, and we heat/cool/pump water/light/cook for about $700 a year. That doesn't count wood, because I cut my own.

Thanks. Those are good suggestions. Yes, most of my gas bill is for taking hot showers! I will consider your suggestions and the costs. Thanks again. :thumbsup:

 

[frogfish]

As much as I do not like the light that is given off by compact florescent bulbs, they sure do use a lot less energy. But they sure do cost a lot more to replace. Do you use CFLs?

You need to shop around, but you can get CFLs for $0.25 per bulb. I found some in a four pack for $0.99. I bought a bunch since I wanted to replace ALL the incandescent bulbs in two houses.

 

[clemsonfor]

You need to shop around, but you can get CFLs for $0.25 per bulb. I found some in a four pack for $0.99. I bought a bunch since I wanted to replace ALL the incandescent bulbs in two houses.

I got some that cheap at lowes i got the little candelabra bases at lowes in 4pks acuse they were on close out, i either paid like $1 or 1.50 a box maybe $2. (i bought like 7-10 boxes, all my celing fans have 4 of them each, they are instant on kind and before we used 40 wats incandesants in them to try and save) The next time we looked they were out of them but had a very similar box for full price???

Where did you find yours at? Regular price or slose out deal? Thats about the price of GE incandesants. I have looked on ebay but i did not see where i could beat a lowes sale after the shipping.

 

[Travelover]

Here in Michigan, I've seen bulbs for 50 cents each at Costco (subsidized by electric power company) and at $1 at Meijer grocery stores.

 

[Phils]

Thanks. Do you have any links to the LED bulbs? I am interested in testing in my home. Also, are they dimmable? I have to have dimmable!!! :laughing:

Nope, no links. I bought it at our local Ace Hdwr. I'd guess "not dimmable" but I threw the pkg away so I don't really know.

Sorry for the late response.... just returned from vacation.

Phil

 

[Phils]

A house paying an average electric bill of $200/ month since Jan. 1977 would've paid a total of ~$79,000 over that ~33-year period.

Curious how you've fared against that, if you've kept track or even a guesstimate?

I apologize for the delayed response, just got back from a great vacation (like, what vacation isn't?).

For the amount of electricity we use, our bill over the years would've been WAY below average. There's only two of us, all lights are turned off when not needed, all "entertainment" is off when not in use (the phantom load on electronics is significant). We've only had an electric refrigerator for two years now (nice to have an icemaker again! AND frost-free!).

I don't have even a guesstimate for you. Our system has changed over the years... early on, it was generator only and hauling gasoline. The last three generators have been propane powered. Our system has evolved rather than being planned.

Because of the generator during dark days, and because the water heater and dryer both use propane in addition to the oven and stove, our propane averages about $100/month. During summer we use an average of 1 1/2 gallons per day. Last winter (more rain than ever and lots of dark days) we averaged 3 1/2 gallons per day over two months.

It was worse: we have had propane refrigerators for decades but combining the efficiency of new fridges with the rising cost of propane, we paid for the fridge with propane savings in less than a year and a half. Our two propane fridges had gotten to over $60/month by themselves.

Phil