What is wrong with this idea

Anonymous Poster · Jan 11, 2003

Wow I'm really surprised that even the 1845 rear end would come up - that machine is 3200 lbs - but i guess when you articulate - you really change the center of gravity as well as shorten the machine - you lose your leverage of having the
engine straight back opposite the load in the bucket

how does it do with the 18cu bucket - because that is the one I want - I am not opposed to adding weight - funny how the PT boys advise against adding weight - I was looking at their video the other day and - there was one of their machines with weights on the back moving soil around

as for the attachments - I will mostly go for new ones but a few I will keep and use on the new machine - instead of changing out the plates - I was going to use a simple plate adaptor for the ones I am keeping and do not use very often

- this way they can still be used on the small machine - wonder why they didn't make the plates universal - oh well

thanks very much for the input on the seat - I really thought that it would make it much more confortable for all the mowing - I sort of find myself hanging off my 425 opposite the slope while I am mowing - again was going to adapt to fit the 1430

Charlie - you really don't like it? - my slopes are up to 20 degrees

Anonymous Poster · Jan 11, 2003

Oh - charlie - i was talking about the tilt seat - -you don't like it?

Anonymous Poster · Jan 11, 2003

Hi Marrt -

No problem - re questions - I am always asking questions - great to answer a few

Couple of questions if you don't mind. I’m in almost the exact same situation as you. I would like to upgrade to a 1430 (or larger) from a 425. I have about 70 hours on my tractor and have had it about 9 months. My questions:

- Will PT take your 425 back in trade?

You can probably work out a deal with them - they usually will not take a trade - but with yours (as with mine it is basically brand new and they do want to move product - mine has 65 hrs) I happen to have a relative that wants mine - so instead of doing the deal with PT (which I had set up) he is taking it and I save a little on shipping it down to them - he saves because he was going to buy a new one and obviously mine saves him a bundle - plus I will deliver it - I can this way help him maintain it since I know the unit so well - we may share a few attachments which we don't use too often for further savings.

- Do you intend to use your existing attachments on the larger tractor (with some type of adapter on the quick attach)?

I plan on saving a few and instead of changing the plates - I am going to make an adaptor plate so the attachment will still fit the 425

I'
- Looking at your pictures, do you have both the 48” and 60” mowers or is the smaller mower a brush mower?

yes both - but the 48 is being returned when I purchase the new one - basically I bought that one first - it takes too long to finish with that one

- Also, if you don’t mind, what type of welder do you use?

arc and wire feed - i also get help from a guy (fabricator) I know - he does all the hard stuff

What are your experiences with the 425 ? - why do you want to trade up? - did you test both? re the 1430 and the 1845

I really wish the 1430 had the 45 hp because the decision would be easy for me - the rest of the features are not that important for my purposes - assuming the 1430 has the required power to mow and climb 20 degrees slopes - they say it is good up to 30 degrees -

but I am concerned with only 5 more hp over the 425
yet it weighs twice as much seems that 20 more would be more appropriate - I just wish I could talk to someone with a 1430

I may just call PT and ask if they know some customers that would talk to me who own a 1430

Anonymous Poster · Jan 11, 2003

Charlie - thank you very much for the input - the tilt seat is really a factor for me and I just assumed that it would be great on slopes - so tell me - would you go for the regular seat of you had to do it over

Anonymous Poster · Jan 11, 2003

Hey just an FYI for everyone on here - I was looking around at wheel motors while trying to identify the 425's and found something - one thing I thing PT should look at is making the units two speed - Char Lynn has 2000 series (the one on the 1430) in two speed version -

So in Hi the motors go to half displacement - twice the RPM and half the torque (that can be the 10mph max speed setting)

In LO they would be at full displacement with twice the torque and half the RPM - (say 5MPH max)

LO would provide easier hill climb capability when mowing steep terrain

have not priced them but plan on speaking to Eaton just to understand how you set them up

Anonymous Poster · Jan 11, 2003

Hey marrt

like the relocation of the lights - you kept the original ones as well - i was thinking that I would do something similar to that

I saw 55 watt halogens in the Northern catalog -

how do they work up there?

pajoube · Jan 11, 2003

marrt,
I would be interested in your 425 if you decide to upgrade.
I am not in any hurry.
PJ

Sedgewood · Jan 12, 2003

edambrose: Wow I'm really surprised that even the 1845 rear end would come up - that machine is 3200 lbs - but i guess when you articulate - you really change the center of gravity as well as shorten the machine - you lose your leverage of having the
engine straight back opposite the load in the bucket

Sure surprised me! The articulated deal I've done several times now but the straight on lift with the hoe sure took me by surprise.

how does it do with the 18cu bucket - because that is the one I want

I don't know, I don't have one. A heaping full 9 cu ft bucket of wet dirt is about all I'd want to carry and has to weigh at least the rated 1200 lbs.

- I am not opposed to adding weight - funny how the PT boys advise against adding weight - I was looking at their video the other day and - there was one of their machines with weights on the back moving soil around

Very interesting - they are quite set on not adding weight, at least not to the wheel assemblies, and someone made reference (Hans?) to the fact that adding counterweight to the back would increase the loads on the very expensive articulaion assembly.

I'm beginning to think our attempts to stretch the limits of these (and any) machines is a bit risky. As in "don't force it - get a bigger hammer" (er, tractor). Yeah I know, Hans, its the 48inch gates, stupid.

Or then we could just take on those jobs that need a bigger machine by taking smaller bites.

Sedgewood · Jan 12, 2003

(is it 116 inchs front of tire to rear)

yes, right on the money.

duane · Jan 12, 2003

Ed,

Now having a two speed wheel motor is a great idea. I'll have to visit eaton's website and find out how it switches between the two ranges. Any idea on what type of transmission pump the 1430 uses. If we knew the exact type wheel motor, tranmission pump and system relief pressure, perhaps could calculate the amount of wheel torque the 1430 could be expected to produce. Then could try and compare wheel torque per pound of vehicle weight. That would tell you whether the 1430 has more, equal or less wheel torque per lb of vehicle weight than your 425. (or maybe Power Trac could tell you the difference in wheel torque on a per lb vehicle weight basis)

I recall a thread where Sedgewood was on an incline and could not climb it, but had plenty of engine power remaining. Apparently the wheel torque needed to climb the incline was lifting his system relief valves.

Duane

Bob999 · Jan 12, 2003

Now having a two speed wheel motor is a great idea.

An alternative approach is a variable displacement pump--this is the approach that PT already uses because it provides speed control. If setting the treadle to minimum displacement (and speed) does not resolve the stalling problem on a steep grade I doubt that two speed motors would resolve it.

Additionally, a major difficulty with 2 speed motors may be that there are 4 wheel motors and the control mechanism to shift all motors at the same time could be complex, particularly to get a "soft" shift.

marrt · Jan 12, 2003

edambrose

I was able to find the same light PT uses at Car Quest for about $10 per light. I don’t recall for sure, but I think these lights are 35 watts or so. I didn’t want to add lights that would be significantly more powerful because I was concerned about the strength of the Kohler alternator and wanted to use the existing switch and wiring harness. With all four lights on, it really makes a huge difference. Also, I left the top lights a little loose so I can aim them with my hand if needed. Highly recommended.

marrt · Jan 12, 2003

but I am concerned with only 5 more hp over the 425 yet it weighs twice as much seems that 20 more would be more appropriate - I just wish I could talk to someone with a 1430 

This is my exact concern as well. I would upgrade to a 1430 in a second if I were comfortable that the extra power was worth the extra (almost double) cost. I wanted to test a 1430 the week of Thanksgiving, when I happened to be driving by the factory, but they were closed the entire week. Because the 1430 uses a diesel engine with more torque, it may be fine for my needs. However, without a test, I’m not ready to take the leap. And the fact that almost no one seems to buy the 1430 may be a signal.

On the other hand, the 425 is almost the perfect size for my use. What it needs is 10 more HP and/or 20 more Ft/lbs of torque. I’m sure that with the enough effort, one could figure out how to drop a bigger engine in. At low speeds, a bigger engine would not stress the tractor that much because the wheels would loose traction, or the release valves would cut in, before any damage is done. And at higher speeds, such as mowing a field, the extra torque would be invaluable (although one would have to keep an extra eye on the hydraulic oil temperature). Further, it would be easy to resale a 25HP Kohler since they are commonly used in lots of other equipment. Hmmmm.

marrt · Jan 12, 2003

pajoube, thanks. If I can get back down to the factory to test drive the 1430, maybe I can make a decision. If I get serious about trading, I'll send you a private note first.

Hey Charlie, Hans, et al.? When is the next yearly pilgrimage to the factory? Maybe I can hitch a ride with you. I can meet you on 81 or 66, whichever is convenient. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

marrt · Jan 12, 2003

yes both - but the 48 is being returned when I purchase the new one - basically I bought that one first - it takes too long to finish with that one 

When I was buying my PT, one of the guys at the factory told me the 48” mower would mow just as fast as the 60” mower. Due to the small cost difference, and the fact that I couldn’t see how that could be true, I bought the 60” anyway. However, in retrospect, I wonder if the 48” wouldn’t have been a better choice because I could add a wing mower, while, hopefully, still maintaining a decent top speed.

I would be interested in seeing a picture of your 425 to 1400/1800 adaptor if you go that route.

Charlie_Iliff · Jan 12, 2003

Charlie - you really don't like it? - my slopes are up to 20 degrees. 
Ed: When I said I don't much like it, I didn't mean that I would remove it or lock it out. It is just that it has been a bit of a maintenance challenge, and really doesn't seem necessary. The seat is tilted by a double acting hydraulic cylinder, controlled by a three position solenoid controlled valve. The valve, in turn, is activated by circuits which are opened or closed by fairly simple - read cheap - mercury switches in brackets which are adjustable by loosening a single mounting screw, turning the bracket, and tightening the screw, which invariably moves the bracket. There are no index lines for reference and no guidance in the book. Terry advised to set them "about a quarter inch" of tilt. When the system stops working, for instance when the throttle cable knocks a connector off the tilt solenoid, the seat threatens to dump you over the side. And, I found it more reliable after running a solid ground wire to the seat electrical box, instead of counting on the general frame ground. But, having said all that, the system has been pretty good for a while now.
I, too, mow a fair amount on slopes, some which seem really steep, and therefore are probably 20 degrees or more. They are steep enough that the PT will not hold the hill unless I crab, with the single turfs. The tilt seat does level reasonably well on those areas, but to get it to do so consistently, you have to set the mercury switches so it is fairly busy just driving around and cornering. Having the seat tilt with the machine, it seems to me, wouldn't be very uncomfortable, and discomfort could really be minimized with a couple of simple wedge bolsters, so you don't slide sideways as much. I have spent a lot of time on sailboats, and tilting isn't uncomfortable to me at all. (Uncontrolled sliding down the hill, on the other hand, raises my pucker factor, and was a major reason to get the PT and mow the slopes previously done for years, and numerous slides, with a John Deere 950 and 72" Woods single spindle brush hog.)
You may really like the tilt seat. I just haven't been enthralled with the added complexity and, to me, minimal real benefit.

Charlie_Iliff · Jan 12, 2003

Or then we could just take on those jobs that need a bigger machine by taking smaller bites. 
Sedgewood
That's a sage observation, based on the wisdom of your advanced years, which I know to be the same as mine. Why is it, then, that Bubenberg, chronologically our peer, still holds that the only definition of success is biting off more than he can chew -- and then chewing it.

Anonymous Poster · Jan 12, 2003

Duane - I don't think PT will help us - I only stumbled on to the fact that the 1430 uses 2000 series Char Lynn and the 1845 uses 4000 series - it looks like only the 2000 series and 10000 series has a two speed version
but the only way we would know the entire picture is to know the actually unit (displacement) because each model has different sizes - the pump is supposed to be an Eaton on the 1430 and a Sunstrand on the 1845 - now if we could find out the displacement of the wheel motors - we would know what the pump is putting out (or supposed to be putting out) by backing into it based on the advertised top speed of the unit (ie we know what the tire size is - and therefore can figure out the wheel motor rpm)

All this is nice - but we need to know more info

Any ideas? - I have tried every angle - they simply will not tell me any of this "Specification" information no matter who I talk to - they are well trained

Anonymous Poster · Jan 12, 2003

RE

An alternative approach is a variable displacement pump--this is the approach that PT already uses because it provides speed control. If setting the treadle to minimum displacement (and speed) does not resolve the stalling problem on a steep grade I doubt that two speed motors would resolve it.

That does not seem right - you would be increasing the variable volume transmission to achieve the same speed
when you increase the volume of the trans - you produce more torque - Right?