What kind of welder should I buy?

[Rara Avis]

Loogie:

You are getting some good advice here. So here's my two cents as well.
First, I come from a family of welders. My dad was the welding foreman for many years in a shipyard. My brother was a welder and later a superintendant in a paper mill. Both told me to start with Oxy/Acetylene.
It will take a little practice but welding is an art/skill.
I have an Oxy/Acetylene outfit (Smith), a 165 amp Harbour freight gas mig, and a Lincoln tombstone (had this for over 30 years). I am going to buy a Miller Bobcat 250 as I have 15.5 acres and lots of pipe fencing to finish building.
The gas unit will get you started and you will always be using it. Cutting pipe, plate steel, etc is always easier with a torch anyway.
Go 220 not 110....after more than 30 years of it I have never regretted going with a 220 welder.
Finally, you will find like most of us that you will wind up with several welders. Each unit has it's strength an weaknesses hence the use for each type.

Good Luck.

Yep...starting with Oxy/Acetylene will definitely help alot when you get to MIG/TIG...that is the way our trainer operated...

 

[gemini5362]

guys I am going to disagree with you here. Depending on what kind of welding they are doing why start with oxy acetylene. I wont argue that it will make you a better welder probably. But if you are just doing light farming or hobby work why spend the money to learn with the oxy/acetylene. They can get a mig unit learn the basics with that and do a lot of handy work without having to know how to be a pipeline welder.

 

[HPXDEEREDEALER]

guys I am going to disagree with you here. Depending on what kind of welding they are doing why start with oxy acetylene. I wont argue that it will make you a better welder probably. But if you are just doing light farming or hobby work why spend the money to learn with the oxy/acetylene. They can get a mig unit learn the basics with that and do a lot of handy work without having to know how to be a pipeline welder.

Agreed.

As a past Ag Shop Teacher, we always taught Oxy last as to develop the basic skills. Oxy/Acy also seems to be, for us, a lot more dangerous.

I Started With Oxy but that was back in the day
Then learned stick
then learned mig
then learned tig

Now I'd have to say I'm pretty darn good.

 

[cp1969]

Agreed.

As a past Ag Shop Teacher, we always taught Oxy last as to develop the basic skills. Oxy/Acy also seems to be, for us, a lot more dangerous.

I Started With Oxy but that was back in the day
Then learned stick
then learned mig
then learned tig

Now I'd have to say I'm pretty darn good.

I don't understand...I would think basic skills should be taught first, as you were.

 

[JB4310]

This thread is getting stretched out but could go on forever due to the fact that the people on this site have a keen interest in metal fabrication.
A couple of observations, I've been a hack welder for 30 years, even though I have an A/C, a D/C, a Mig and a O/A gas outfit, I've never had a minute of formal lessons and at 46 I'm thinking it's not to late.
As someone already mentioned welding is an art, it's not like most other expensive power tools were you just plug em in and in a short time you've pretty much mastered it. I've only recently learned the importance of using two hands while welding which is probably something you would learn early on in any training course.
Regarding the OXY/ACET talk, I think it is a must for steel fabrication, not so much for welding with but for cutting, bending, blowing bolt holes and I've never ever had a fastener that would not break free after being heated with the torch.
I've never used a plasma cutter but have seen how clean they cut, can you use the plasma machine to do other torch applications ie. heating/bending type stuff or are they strictly only for cutting? if you can do everything a torch set up can do and still have those perfectly clean and cool cuts then that will be next on my list.

 

[cp1969]

No, a plasma cutter is a very specialized tool. It demolishes everything in its path with a 50,000 deg flame. You would have to have a very deft hand to simply heat with it.

O/A can make some very clean cuts, too....IF you use the right tip and pressures.

 

[Rara Avis]

guys I am going to disagree with you here. Depending on what kind of welding they are doing why start with oxy acetylene. I wont argue that it will make you a better welder probably. But if you are just doing light farming or hobby work why spend the money to learn with the oxy/acetylene. They can get a mig unit learn the basics with that and do a lot of handy work without having to know how to be a pipeline welder.

The reason for Oxy/Acetylene first...is that when you get to TIG...much of its skill sets are more like GAS welding...

The other advantage is you can weld, cut and heat with a single unit...Relatively cheap investment

As for Farm welding...AC/DC Buzzbox is very nice, because you can do it in a breeze... ....and it doesn't have to be clean...

Hobby work...I agree with you...a little MIG unit is OK...

 

[JB4310]

O/A can make some very clean cuts, too....IF you use the right tip and pressures.

Yes another area where the skill level is almost an art, it's amazing how fast you can cut with a steady hand, I have an interesting tip that you can rest on plate steel and just drag it on the surface, have not used it much though.
Thanks for the info on the plasma machine.

 

[Rara Avis]

A couple of observations, I've been a hack welder for 30 years, even though I have an A/C, a D/C, a Mig and a O/A gas outfit, I've never had a minute of formal lessons and at 46 I'm thinking it's not to late.

Check out the technical education unit in your public school system...they accept adults, and your taxes have already paid for most your class expense...

 

[gemini5362]

It is very interesting seeing what other people put the priority of different systms are. Watching people talk about tig fascinates me. I have used our tig at work and to be honest I consider it extremely slow. We have someone that took professional welding courses to get good with it and what he can do is amazing but it takes quite a bit of time to run long beads. With a stick or a mig you can run beads extremely quickly in comparison. As I have said in this discussion I like mig welding because to get to a skill level where you can do hobby and light farming type welding can be done fairly quickly basically all you do is put the tip next to the metal and move it along where you want the bead. Not much to doing that. For someone like me that does small jobs it is perfect. I built a set of loading ramps for my trailer. Basically that involves getting some angle cutting it and welding it together. the cross pieces sit on top of the long angle running from the ground to the trailer. All you are doing is welding them so they dont slide. I had to fix a crack in my trailer frame etc etc. The other thing that seems to be legendary is Oxy/Acy
I found the comment that you can cut straight smooth lines with Oxy/Acy amusing to be honest. I think the person that made that comment forgot how many hours over how many years of practice it took to evolve to that point. I have only seen one person in my life that could cut perfectly straight smooth lines and he was a pipeline welder all of his life. Someone said that you have to have Oxy/Acy for fabrication. My friend who does a lot of fabricating things such as, Building trailers, Building Street rods including building the frame, He took a 1940's model F5 truck and put put a late model pickup chasis under it and then built the flat bed for it including a headache rack that looks like a spider web. I know for a fact that although he has an oxy/acy rig he had to turn in his bottles 7 or 8 years ago and has not felt the need to go purchase new ones. So he has not used his oxy/ acy for any of the projects i mentioned above.

For the person that needs to do some welding and maybe make small projects but has never done that I think they just need a few basic items.
1. Band Saw - The one at harbor freight for under 200 is the one everyone I know has it does a relatively good job and makes nice straight cuts with almost no skill level involved.

2. Drill press - You dont have to have one but sure makes it nice when you are trying to drill straight holes.

3. Mig Welder - Fairly pricey up front but one 20.00 roll of wire lasts almost forever if you are just hobby welding. You dont have to worry about keeping the wire in a dry environment like you do with welding rods. In my opinion the easiest welding environment to learn

4. Auto Darkening helmet- Not that much more money than a regular helmet and for the novice a lot easier to use.

I am sure there will be disagreement with this and I look forward to hearing other peoples views on how to do fabrication.

I think most of the people on here want to honestly help and tell someone how to become expert at welding. We all tend to forget that for someone new they are just trying to learn how to

 

[SnowRidge]

I learned gas and stick and have both. Other than cutting, the gas doesn't get used much.

I got the gas setup in trade and bought stick, simply because everything I read indicated it was the most versatile and cost effective for what I would be doing. While I would like to have a nice Mig machine, I can't justify the expense.

I also took note of the experts who said that it is possible to lay a perfectly gorgeous bead with Mig that has virtually no penetration, especially if the weldor has had no training.
'

 

[gemini5362]

I learned gas and stick and have both. Other than cutting, the gas doesn't get used much.

I got the gas setup in trade and bought stick, simply because everything I read indicated it was the most versatile and cost effective for what I would be doing. While I would like to have a nice Mig machine, I can't justify the expense.

I also took note of the experts who said that it is possible to lay a perfectly gorgeous bead with Mig that has virtually no penetration, especially if the weldor has had no training.
'

would it not be possible to do that with any welder if you do not have any idea at all how to weld or did not do any research in what to look for. I may be entirely wrong but I watch the material I am welding and if I see it melt then I am pretty sure that I am getting penetration. I do know one thing. I dont make pretty beads I am not that good a welder. On the other hand I have not had something I have welded break loose yet either.


I might not have the mig machine but it was a christmas present from my wife. I have been looking at them but did not have enough of a usage to justify the expense. You can buy cheaper units than my Miller DVI though and get very good results with them.

 

[Rara Avis]

It is very interesting seeing what other people put the priority of different systms are. Watching people talk about tig fascinates me. I have used our tig at work and to be honest I consider it extremely slow. We have someone that took professional welding courses to get good with it and what he can do is amazing but it takes quite a bit of time to run long beads. With a stick or a mig you can run beads extremely quickly in comparison. As I have said in this discussion I like mig welding because to get to a skill level where you can do hobby and light farming type welding can be done fairly quickly basically all you do is put the tip next to the metal and move it along where you want the bead. Not much to doing that. For someone like me that does small jobs it is perfect. I built a set of loading ramps for my trailer. Basically that involves getting some angle cutting it and welding it together. the cross pieces sit on top of the long angle running from the ground to the trailer. All you are doing is welding them so they dont slide. I had to fix a crack in my trailer frame etc etc. The other thing that seems to be legendary is Oxy/Acy
I found the comment that you can cut straight smooth lines with Oxy/Acy amusing to be honest. I think the person that made that comment forgot how many hours over how many years of practice it took to evolve to that point. I have only seen one person in my life that could cut perfectly straight smooth lines and he was a pipeline welder all of his life. Someone said that you have to have Oxy/Acy for fabrication. My friend who does a lot of fabricating things such as, Building trailers, Building Street rods including building the frame, He took a 1940's model F5 truck and put put a late model pickup chasis under it and then built the flat bed for it including a headache rack that looks like a spider web. I know for a fact that although he has an oxy/acy rig he had to turn in his bottles 7 or 8 years ago and has not felt the need to go purchase new ones. So he has not used his oxy/ acy for any of the projects i mentioned above.

For the person that needs to do some welding and maybe make small projects but has never done that I think they just need a few basic items.
1. Band Saw - The one at harbor freight for under 200 is the one everyone I know has it does a relatively good job and makes nice straight cuts with almost no skill level involved.

2. Drill press - You dont have to have one but sure makes it nice when you are trying to drill straight holes.

3. Mig Welder - Fairly pricey up front but one 20.00 roll of wire lasts almost forever if you are just hobby welding. You dont have to worry about keeping the wire in a dry environment like you do with welding rods. In my opinion the easiest welding environment to learn

4. Auto Darkening helmet- Not that much more money than a regular helmet and for the novice a lot easier to use.

I am sure there will be disagreement with this and I look forward to hearing other peoples views on how to do fabrication.

I think most of the people on here want to honestly help and tell someone how to become expert at welding. We all tend to forget that for someone new they are just trying to learn how to

Well you listed the major disadvantages...
1.Higher skill set required
2.Slower than other processes
3.Much more expensive equipment

But some of the advantages are...
1.Welds nearly all metals and alloys.
2.No slag development.
3.Little post-weld cleaning needed.
4.No spatter.
5.Allows heat source and filler metal to be controlled independently of each other.
6.Joins dissimilar metals.
7.Good control of initial pass penetration.


As for Equipment needed...You forgot Vice Grips...never seem to have too many...

And you are dead on about forgetting that for someone new they are just trying to learn how to do it...

Guilty as charged...

 

[cp1969]

You are right--Tig is very slow. Very versatile but very slow. It is not all that dissimilar from O/A welding. You are just using an electric arc to produce heat instead of acetylene and also covering it with inert gas.

One thing I will mention from your post before this one is that if you have a straight line to cut with O/A, use a straight edge. There is no shame in using a crutch; this is not a pool game. I have cut some very nice, straight lines using the straight-edge (angle iron is what I used) crutch.

You might be surprised at how uniformly you can cut circles with a torch, too. They make a circle generator attachment (I don't know what the real name of this tool is) that, again, when using the right tip and gas pressures, cuts pretty nice circles.

 

[gemini5362]

I have found that when it comes to vice grips that they come in all different sizes and shapes. I have also found that When I look at a set of vice grips and decide I wont need that particular shape or style for anything, then the very next job I do that shape is the only one that will actually hold everything where I want it to.

Those are good points about the advantages of Oxy/Acy. I had never thought about the ability to weld dissimilar metals. Or that it doesnt leave slag to have to clean up. It is nice to post on this site and see all the different methods of doing the same thing.

 

[SPYDERLK]

I have found that when it comes to vice grips that they come in all different sizes and shapes. I have also found that When I look at a set of vice grips and decide I wont need that particular shape or style for anything, then the very next job I do that shape is the only one that will actually hold everything where I want it to.

Have you tried the V jaw vise grips? Great to hold hex and round. Clamp to a big bolt on the tractor. Best choice for a single tool Ive found for tractor use away from the shop.
larry

 

[Rara Avis]

Those are good points about the advantages of Oxy/Acy. I had never thought about the ability to weld dissimilar metals. Or that it doesnt leave slag to have to clean up. It is nice to post on this site and see all the different methods of doing the same thing.

Those advantages were for TIG....

 

[cp1969]

Which of the advantages does not apply to o/a? It looks to me like all but maybe one (the dissimilar metals....what do you mean?) apply to o/a.

 

[gemini5362]

Have you tried the V jaw vise grips? Great to hold hex and round. Clamp to a big bolt on the tractor. Best choice for a single tool Ive found for tractor use away from the shop.
larry

I have not tried those. We have a store near us which sells imported merchandise. They have one entire building that is tools very similar to what harbor freight sells. My wife does not allow me to go in there very often. The next time she is not aware of my whereabouts I will go in there and look for a pair of them

 

[Rara Avis]

Which of the advantages does not apply to o/a? It looks to me like all but maybe one (the dissimilar metals....what do you mean?) apply to o/a.

Dissimilar metals is the primary one I was thinking about....I know that you can end up doing soldering, brazing, or braze welding.

Something else not mentioned in my list dealing with a shortcoming of O/A is reduction...caused by the O2 combining with the oxides in the metals