what on earth does electricity cost near you?

[LJH]

Holy cow, I'm in shock reading how much some of you guys pay for electricity!

Our little mountain power co-op charges .068 per KWH. Our 'base rate' is $17 per month and state sales tax is 4¼%. We cook and heat our water with propane and heat the 1600 sq. ft. house with wood using a masonry heater, aka Russian stove and a few other labels. We don't have an HVAC system at all. It takes us <> three cords a year to stay toasty, depending on the weather.

 

[buickanddeere]

Perth Western Australia evaporative cooling in summer. We have solar hot water.

Weedpharma

Per "unit" ? is that per "kilowatt"?
With the humidity here we need to run a compressor for AC.
Four months of the year here with short days and cloud cover. Solar panels are just mostly for looks during winter.

 

[alia176]

To the OP, if you are going to purchase a house, keep solar power in mind. Having a house that's oriented properly and with a proper pitched roof makes for a killer PV panel installation. As stated already. A tight house is the best defense against the ever rising cost of utilities.

Good luck.

 

[dragoneggs]

To the OP, if you are going to purchase a house, keep solar power in mind. Having a house that's oriented properly and with a proper pitched roof makes for a killer PV panel installation. As stated already. A tight house is the best defense against the ever rising cost of utilities.

Good luck.

I'm a proponent of solar power... studied it school and took another look at the potential at employing it here at my home in the PNW. The problem is the return on investment. Not sure what the solar index is in Indiana but it just doesn't compute where I live. NM... sure!!!

 

[alia176]

I'm a proponent of solar power... studied it school and took another look at the potential at employing it here at my home in the PNW. The problem is the return on investment. Not sure what the solar index is in Indiana but it just doesn't compute where I live. NM... sure!!!

You're absolutely correct, the # of sun hours (solar index) and elevation play a huge part of your decision to make this investment. However, given the cost of the PV parts, one can acquire parts and pieces at a reasonable cost over time. If you do the work yourself, as we tend to do on this forum board, you can save yourself a huge amount of $$$. If you have a professional install your system, they have to use expensive, quality parts that makes the installation quicker. Quicker installation = more money. If you do a DIY installation, you can creatively do the same thing w/o having to spend a ton of money.

In my case, I acquired the necessary parts and pieces for a 6.5kw grid tie system over the course of three years. This included Ebay, Craigslist, dumpster diving (recycling wires, conduit pieces, etc) and whatever else it took to source all necessary items. I built the structure to support the PV panels (deck awning), took the homeowners electrician test at the local county office, got the permit, installed it and now reaping the benefits.

Just so everyone understands, you do not have to have a battery backup "off grid" system to enjoy the benefits of a PV system. In my case, the "battery" aka the local power grid is super reliable and we do indeed live in the boonies. The grid uptime here is over 99%.

Another thing to remember is the advent of micro-inverters which can cost as little as $150/each that can be used under each PV panel. So, rather than having to buy a large central inverter that weighs over 100lbs (like mine), you can increase your PV system over time by using one single with one single micro-inverter.

As we all know, the cost of utilities is going to increase and utility companies are wanting to get paid for the KWH's they're losing to guys like me. In CO, one of the local utility tried to pass a "charge to REC owners" for having a PV system on their house. Thankfully the PUC squashed it but I see that as a trend. If you're thinking of going solar, then do it now!!

Here's some info on IN renewable energy: http://www.in.gov/oed/2616.htm

If we want to discuss this further, let's not hijack OP's thread anymore. Let's start a new thread!

 

[jejeosborne]

Just so everyone understands, you do not have to have a battery backup "off grid" system to enjoy the benefits of a PV system. In my case, the "battery" aka the local power grid is super reliable and we do indeed live in the boonies. The grid uptime here is over 99%.

As we all know, the cost of utilities is going to increase and utility companies are wanting to get paid for the KWH's they're losing to guys like me. In CO, one of the local utility tried to pass a "charge to REC owners" for having a PV system on their house. Thankfully the PUC squashed it but I see that as a trend. If you're thinking of going solar, then do it now!!

What are your thoughts on being charged by the local utility for using them as "battery"? You mention their great uptime percentage and reliability. The current grid and rate structures are not written for this new net metering. Some homes are net zero users and basically using the utility for free. It appears you feel like you are currently getting a great deal from them and just wanted to see what your thoughts are.

 

[dave1949]

What are your thoughts on being charged by the local utility for using them as "battery"? You mention their great uptime percentage and reliability. The current grid and rate structures are not written for this new net metering. Some homes are net zero users and basically using the utility for free. It appears you feel like you are currently getting a great deal from them and just wanted to see what your thoughts are.

I'll butt in a bit.

My grid-tied system is close to net zero on electric usage. I have been tracking the trend toward charging grid-tied users more, but it's hard to get an apples to apples comparison since each state is slightly different in what they allow for grid-tied connections.

I paid the electric company to install service at my home when we built, setting four poles and stringing the wire. I pay $8.91 per month just to be connected to the grid. I will never get paid for any excess power I may generate, I get credits for excess generation with a 12 month lifetime in a "use it or lose it" arrangement.

I don't think I am making use of the grid at the expense of other rate payers. To a tiny extent, I am curtailing grid expansion costs for everyone. Multiply that by thousands of other solar installations and there has to be some benefit to all rate payers that should be taken into consideration too.

 

[alia176]

What are your thoughts on being charged by the local utility for using them as "battery"? You mention their great uptime percentage and reliability. The current grid and rate structures are not written for this new net metering. Some homes are net zero users and basically using the utility for free. It appears you feel like you are currently getting a great deal from them and just wanted to see what your thoughts are.

My utility company has a decent program for REC users. Not only do I get paid money based on a digital REC meter but I also get to "net" meter the surplus energy. Net meter is basically the billing meter (came with the house) spinning backwards. The min monthly cost (hookup fee) is $5.45. In 2012, I paid them $291.05 and they paid me $511.36. :thumbsup: Obviously it's not a one for one money exchange - they pay me $0.08/kwh and I pay them crap load more depending on the Tier pricing. But, it's still beneficial for me to have a PV system given my location and elevation. Last month I paid them $15.

I'd like to give you folks an example that will quantify one of the benefit of my PV system. Our house is cooled with an evaporative (swamp) cooler that uses a 3/4 hp blower. At 120 volts, it draws approx 14amps (at high speed). At low speed, the current draw is approx 7amps. On one cloudy day, I was running the swamp cooler at the slow speed then walked down to the billing meter on the pole. The billing meter was at a standstill!! Why is this significant? My PV panels, that are not angled optimally, can produce approx 7 amps on a cloudy day. The radiance from the sky had enough photons to make the PV system still function on a cloudy day during the summer monsoon season here in NM. I found that to be simply brilliant. Yes, I was doing cartwheels next to the power pole, I won't lie.

As always, having energy efficient appliances, developing a culture of conservation, and tightening up the home envelope are good practices to lowering your carbon foot print.

This year I"ll be starting a solar water heating project that'll be used to heat domestic, hot tub and hydronic system water.

 

[3930dave]

Distributed generation from small scale grid-tied sources has its attractions. Firstly, it should enable a more resilient grid - both in terms of "normal" single point failures, and hostile ones.

Financially, utilities and govts like to see private entities assuming the capital and maintenance costs for these small generation projects. They really like this option when compared to doing traditional mega-projects themselves.

Utilities are really in a no lose situation. Overall, they are viewed as Can't Fail institutions (existence wise), so if huge gains are made in energy efficiency by consumers, or many people install their own alternate energy sources, then they are typically awarded various fairy-tale fees and surcharges to make up for revenue shortfalls.

This thread shows the tremendous range of electricity costs out there. Unfortunately, once a utillity starts down this road of making the same or more money by doing less business, they're hooked.

PV solar cells have continually improved in terms of output and cost. As described, output under cloudy conditions today can be decent. Something some people don't realize is that PV panels do quite well in our Winter conditions. Cells are more efficient at low temperatures, and if they are mounted in an open field, light levels are somewhat increased due to reflected light from snow cover on the ground.

One of the original reasons solar PV was attractive was for remote properties. Installation costs for utility lines have only escalated over the years, while PV system cost has come down. If you care to reside on a remote property (requiring using batteries in your system), then the huge cost of installing utility power lines can be re-directed into owning your own power grid. Not for everybody, but most who go down this road are happy with the results.

Rgds, D.

 

[CobyRupert]

What??? So I should use my fireplace in the summer time instead of my air conditioner? :confused3:

Yes, and if you have a cool basement that you can pass the air being drafted into the house through, all the better. I just wouldn't light a fire in it.

Regarding the OP's original question: "What on earth does electricity cost near you?" Nothing when it's on earth (at ground potential).
But unfortunately it's about 12 cents per kW-hr to have it raised from earth to 120/240V.

 

[buickanddeere]

Distributed generation from small scale grid-tied sources has its attractions. Firstly, it should enable a more resilient grid - both in terms of "normal" single point failures, and hostile ones.

Financially, utilities and govts like to see private entities assuming the capital and maintenance costs for these small generation projects. They really like this option when compared to doing traditional mega-projects themselves.

Utilities are really in a no lose situation. Overall, they are viewed as Can't Fail institutions (existence wise), so if huge gains are made in energy efficiency by consumers, or many people install their own alternate energy sources, then they are typically awarded various fairy-tale fees and surcharges to make up for revenue shortfalls.

This thread shows the tremendous range of electricity costs out there. Unfortunately, once a utillity starts down this road of making the same or more money by doing less business, they're hooked.

PV solar cells have continually improved in terms of output and cost. As described, output under cloudy conditions today can be decent. Something some people don't realize is that PV panels do quite well in our Winter conditions. Cells are more efficient at low temperatures, and if they are mounted in an open field, light levels are somewhat increased due to reflected light from snow cover on the ground.

One of the original reasons solar PV was attractive was for remote properties. Installation costs for utility lines have only escalated over the years, while PV system cost has come down. If you care to reside on a remote property (requiring using batteries in your system), then the huge cost of installing utility power lines can be re-directed into owning your own power grid. Not for everybody, but most who go down this road are happy with the results.

Rgds, D.

Grid tie won't stand alone and generate. They need to detect utility power to operate.

 

[dave1949]

Grid tie won't stand alone and generate. They need to detect utility power to operate.

There are hybrid systems that will minimally function in stand alone.

 

[grsthegreat]

were 0.05 - 0.06 /KWH ( forget which one). bills arnt too high.

have 20 acres of trees that keep me in free firewood also

 

[arrow]

We are currently charged around 7 cents per kwh. Then all the fees , taxes and surcharges raise this to .14. Cost per kilowatt is meaningless as a result. It is more like a "unit" of electricity cost 14 cents. The "units" over the last 7 years have ranged from .10 to .24 per unit.

 

[3930dave]

Grid tie won't stand alone and generate. They need to detect utility power to operate.

Yeah, if you have a flaky grid, I'd just go off-grid. With a solid grid, people like "tied" to get away from batteries, and for potential revenue.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

There are hybrid systems that will minimally function in stand alone.

Agreed. Nice for a solid grid that has a once in a decade major problem.

Rgds, D.

 

[dave1949]

Agreed. Nice for a solid grid that has a once in a decade major problem.

Rgds, D.

Those that incorporate a few batteries also work for frequent short duration outages. Probably more a convenience than a necessity for most peoples' situations.

I'm not sure how the "greeness" of off-grid with full battery banks, stacks up against a grid that gets a significant portion of its power from renewable sources such as hydro and wind. If a large component of grid power is from renewables, it may be that a grid-tied system is "greener" overall than an off-grid system.

If the carbon and pollution foot print of the batteries, which have a finite service life, exceeds that of the grid, it could be a close comparison.

 

[weedpharma]

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Per "unit" ? is that per "kilowatt"?\
With the humidity here we need to run a compressor for AC.\
Four months of the year here with short days and cloud cover. Solar panels are just mostly for looks during winter.

\
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Yes, per kWh

Weedpharma

 

[3930dave]

Green-ness.... well, that depends on who you ask, and what your metrics are

The battery industry has a long history of recovering material, enough so they were exempt from ROHS legislation the last I checked. It is a relatively closed loop industry from a hazardous material standpoint.

Until low cost superconductors come along, one of the Non-Green aspects of generating power remotely (standard practice today) is the transmission losses, regardless of the generating source.

That is one of the green gains of locally generated power, off-grid or tied.

Power going into the grid has to be used, now. Batteries store the generated energy, for when it needs to be used. So, while necessary for today's world, the grid has some built-in inefficiencies.

I think most people have 2 problems with batteries, that come ahead of any green issues.

1) They cost money.

2) They have to be safely stored, and maintained. Costs money/time again.

Rgds, D.

 

[dave1949]

Green-ness.... well, that depends on who you ask, and what your metrics are

The battery industry has a long history of recovering material, enough so they were exempt from ROHS legislation the last I checked. It is a relatively closed loop industry from a hazardous material standpoint.

Until low cost superconductors come along, one of the Non-Green aspects of generating power remotely (standard practice today) is the transmission losses, regardless of the generating source.

That is one of the green gains of locally generated power, off-grid or tied.

Power going into the grid has to be used, now. Batteries store the generated energy, for when it needs to be used. So, while necessary for today's world, the grid has some built-in inefficiencies.

I think most people have 2 problems with batteries, that come ahead of any green issues.

1) They cost money.

2) They have to be safely stored, and maintained. Costs money/time again.

Rgds, D.

Around here, battery banks are usually sized to meet the power demand for two-three days without appreciable solar charging. The usual result is excess capacity at each and every installation 90% of the time; a characteristic shared by the grid, but not for each service end point. The grid capacity excess is shared across many end points. On a percentage basis, there may be more excess capacity in an off-grid system per end point than in the grid.

I don't think the comparison is all that straight forward. Obviously, a value must be assigned to green-ness because green energy is adopted to avoid the costs associated with carbon fuels.