Slamfire
Veteran Member
Re: What\'s up with this roof?
Do you have exposed beam ceilings?
Do you have exposed beam ceilings?
What's up with this roof?
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Robert_in_NY
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Re: What\'s up with this roof?
They also make lifetime shingles now but they cost a fortune. The shingles look like they are .5" thick. Most of the shingles we use now are 30 year.
They also make lifetime shingles now but they cost a fortune. The shingles look like they are .5" thick. Most of the shingles we use now are 30 year.
knucklehead
Platinum Member
Re: What\'s up with this roof?
After a second look, and reading the other replies, I'm also wondering about rafter spacing a bit. But the ridge could be showing regardless of rafter spacing, as a result of not staggering the sheathing. The H clips mentioned before are used (in my neck of the woods, anyway) more for strength in the open span between rafters, and not for expansion. They would also hold the plywood in alignment, and reduce the appearance of a ridge.
If you think about it, plywood shouldn't experience a great amount of growth, as it is an engineered product, typically with alternating grain. None of the sheathing I have put on has ever been spaced, roof or wall. We also don't even clip it when it's installed on 16" centered rafters. My house (built in 1964) has 2x6 rafters, 24" on center, spanning almost 17 feet, and is about as weak as they come (especially with 275 lbs dancing on it /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif). It has 1/2" plywood sheathing, staggered 4' as normal per course, with no clips. I can see very faint rafter lines if I stare at it, and it probably bears more on the interior kneewall than it should. These comments are from a New England perspective, of course, but in this case it should apply to New Yawk /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif.
Now, I said all that to say this /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif: what is most interesting is that your ridges appear to be most pronounced in the area of your skylights. Are there ridges in other places, other than the fainter one to the right, in the picture? How long ago were they installed? The very first thing I would investigate is how they have been framed. It looks like they could have been slipped up between rafters, but it's interesting that the ridges are most pronounced there. Improper framing, and the non-staggered plywood, might give you your answer. Are you hanging anything below that, like a bunch of cast iron pots on a 1" re-bar rack? Plants? Is that part of the bathroom, as the old thunder vent might indicate? Is it wet in there, i.e. unvented? Is there leaking around the lights, which could weaken the plywood over time? Before I started thinking about the whole roof, I'd concentrate on the specific area that seems the worst.
More .02
After a second look, and reading the other replies, I'm also wondering about rafter spacing a bit. But the ridge could be showing regardless of rafter spacing, as a result of not staggering the sheathing. The H clips mentioned before are used (in my neck of the woods, anyway) more for strength in the open span between rafters, and not for expansion. They would also hold the plywood in alignment, and reduce the appearance of a ridge.
If you think about it, plywood shouldn't experience a great amount of growth, as it is an engineered product, typically with alternating grain. None of the sheathing I have put on has ever been spaced, roof or wall. We also don't even clip it when it's installed on 16" centered rafters. My house (built in 1964) has 2x6 rafters, 24" on center, spanning almost 17 feet, and is about as weak as they come (especially with 275 lbs dancing on it /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif). It has 1/2" plywood sheathing, staggered 4' as normal per course, with no clips. I can see very faint rafter lines if I stare at it, and it probably bears more on the interior kneewall than it should. These comments are from a New England perspective, of course, but in this case it should apply to New Yawk /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif.
Now, I said all that to say this /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif: what is most interesting is that your ridges appear to be most pronounced in the area of your skylights. Are there ridges in other places, other than the fainter one to the right, in the picture? How long ago were they installed? The very first thing I would investigate is how they have been framed. It looks like they could have been slipped up between rafters, but it's interesting that the ridges are most pronounced there. Improper framing, and the non-staggered plywood, might give you your answer. Are you hanging anything below that, like a bunch of cast iron pots on a 1" re-bar rack? Plants? Is that part of the bathroom, as the old thunder vent might indicate? Is it wet in there, i.e. unvented? Is there leaking around the lights, which could weaken the plywood over time? Before I started thinking about the whole roof, I'd concentrate on the specific area that seems the worst.
More .02
patrickg
Veteran Member
Re: What\'s up with this roof?
Robert, I'm a much more sophisticated guy since I met you. Now when someone says they have pet deer or raise deer I don't come across so totally ignorant. Anyway, roofing... In your experience what is the most bang for the buck? We are in the design phase for our new home and have, as you are well aware, a bewildering array of decisions, choices, tradeoffs, compromises etc. (did I miss many?) to make. We are leaning toward Victorian Farmhouse outside with a shell of ICF and a fairly open plan inside. Since we live just a few miles from the geographic center of tornado alley (about 10? miles, adjacent county) we are concerned with hail resistance and wind survival as well as longivity and price performance. Given the steep pitch of Victorian gabled roofs and the labor costs for workers to rapel down a pitch while roofing. I want to make sure I spend enough on shingles to get into a level of quality that may prevent having to reshingle too often.
Everyone wants to sell their product, making many claims, and my lack of in-depth knowledge and just a little experience in the labor of installation essentially disqualifies me as an informed consumer. I have only re-roofed two houses, one done by a friend and myself (turned out fine) and the last one was a red Mexican clay tile job. The original tiles had many broken pieces but new tiles in the same size were not available so the old tiles were reused where they could be seen from the ground and new ones on a slope where they were not. The old ones were "hand" made (emphasis on hand) in the 1920's when the house was built. The finger and palm prints of the workers were clearly visible in the surface of the tiles. Out here in south central Oklahoma that roof would last till the first fair sized hail then it would be history.
Could you offer any suggestions, recommendations, guidance, or sympathy?
Patrick
Robert, I'm a much more sophisticated guy since I met you. Now when someone says they have pet deer or raise deer I don't come across so totally ignorant. Anyway, roofing... In your experience what is the most bang for the buck? We are in the design phase for our new home and have, as you are well aware, a bewildering array of decisions, choices, tradeoffs, compromises etc. (did I miss many?) to make. We are leaning toward Victorian Farmhouse outside with a shell of ICF and a fairly open plan inside. Since we live just a few miles from the geographic center of tornado alley (about 10? miles, adjacent county) we are concerned with hail resistance and wind survival as well as longivity and price performance. Given the steep pitch of Victorian gabled roofs and the labor costs for workers to rapel down a pitch while roofing. I want to make sure I spend enough on shingles to get into a level of quality that may prevent having to reshingle too often.
Everyone wants to sell their product, making many claims, and my lack of in-depth knowledge and just a little experience in the labor of installation essentially disqualifies me as an informed consumer. I have only re-roofed two houses, one done by a friend and myself (turned out fine) and the last one was a red Mexican clay tile job. The original tiles had many broken pieces but new tiles in the same size were not available so the old tiles were reused where they could be seen from the ground and new ones on a slope where they were not. The old ones were "hand" made (emphasis on hand) in the 1920's when the house was built. The finger and palm prints of the workers were clearly visible in the surface of the tiles. Out here in south central Oklahoma that roof would last till the first fair sized hail then it would be history.
Could you offer any suggestions, recommendations, guidance, or sympathy?
Patrick
StoneHeartFarm
Veteran Member
Re: What\'s up with this roof?
Muhammad
Is the roof trussed or raftered?
Muhammad
Is the roof trussed or raftered?
Robert_in_NY
Super Member
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Re: What\'s up with this roof?
If money is no object go with slate or concrete tiles that look like slate. It cost a bundle but last forever and look great. If money does play a little bit just remember you will get what you pay for. There are a lot of shingles out now that claim they will withstand 110mph winds. I have never had that hard of winds here but we have had some in the 60-70 mph range and the shingles we used on our house have stood up fine. Go to you local lumber yard and look thru there shingle samples as most manufactuers have multiple grades of shingles. We deal with IKO and GAF and have had good luck with their products so far. I do like the look of slate tiles so on our own house we used a 40year/110 mph asphalt shingle called Slateline by GAF which give the look of slate but go on extremly easy and fast. You can learn a lot from GAF's site which is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.gaf.com>http://www.gaf.com</A>
This is what the slateline looklike from GAF's site
I hoped that helped a little but if not I tried. Take care.
If money is no object go with slate or concrete tiles that look like slate. It cost a bundle but last forever and look great. If money does play a little bit just remember you will get what you pay for. There are a lot of shingles out now that claim they will withstand 110mph winds. I have never had that hard of winds here but we have had some in the 60-70 mph range and the shingles we used on our house have stood up fine. Go to you local lumber yard and look thru there shingle samples as most manufactuers have multiple grades of shingles. We deal with IKO and GAF and have had good luck with their products so far. I do like the look of slate tiles so on our own house we used a 40year/110 mph asphalt shingle called Slateline by GAF which give the look of slate but go on extremly easy and fast. You can learn a lot from GAF's site which is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.gaf.com>http://www.gaf.com</A>
This is what the slateline looklike from GAF's site
I hoped that helped a little but if not I tried. Take care.
heehaw
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Re: What\'s up with this roof?
i agree about the H clips, around here they are put between the rafters to keep the plywood edges together, they are not put on the ends, so i assumed they were for alignment, not spacing?? not knowing what caused the problem, the only fix i can see is removal/replacement of the decking.
heehaw
i agree about the H clips, around here they are put between the rafters to keep the plywood edges together, they are not put on the ends, so i assumed they were for alignment, not spacing?? not knowing what caused the problem, the only fix i can see is removal/replacement of the decking.
heehaw
boustany
Platinum Member
Re: What\'s up with this roof?
I am pretty sure the beginning and end of the problem is the fact that the plywood wasn't staggered. The building inspector must have been drunk to let them get away with that: when I built my 4,000 square foot house (with a roughly 5,000 square foot roof) the building inspector spotted a single are about 4 x 4 where I had the plywood vertical and he mad me change it, as het should have.
If the edges line up, whatever loads there (such as a slightly out of alignment truss) would be amplified and 'ripple' accross the roof.
Probably the best fix is to pull off the singles and layer a new deck of 1/2" ply on top (staggered), then reshingle. It should go real quick (1 day to deck, one day to shingle), especially if you call for 'volonteers'.
Good luck.
Brian
I am pretty sure the beginning and end of the problem is the fact that the plywood wasn't staggered. The building inspector must have been drunk to let them get away with that: when I built my 4,000 square foot house (with a roughly 5,000 square foot roof) the building inspector spotted a single are about 4 x 4 where I had the plywood vertical and he mad me change it, as het should have.
If the edges line up, whatever loads there (such as a slightly out of alignment truss) would be amplified and 'ripple' accross the roof.
Probably the best fix is to pull off the singles and layer a new deck of 1/2" ply on top (staggered), then reshingle. It should go real quick (1 day to deck, one day to shingle), especially if you call for 'volonteers'.
Good luck.
Brian
OP
Re: What\'s up with this roof?
Thanks to everyone for the responses... seems that from what I know now, it would be reasonable to suspect...
<font color=green>The sheathing not being staggered probably contributed to this
There probably isn't proper spacing between the plywood sheets
The skylights are probably allowing moisture in, which would contribute to the curling of the plywood (which happened because of improper spacing/lack of staggering).</font color=green>
The skylights were added about 10 years ago, after the house was built, so I think one of the first things I'll do is have those looked at, resealed, or whatever.
After that, I'll have someone take a small portion of the shingles off, in a problem spot, to further investigate the condition of the sheathing and determine when something needs to be done about it.
Seems that a reasonable solution to this, any way I slice it, is to replace the sheathing with proper grade/spaced/staggered plywood... that is, after I ensure the skylights aren't going to allow moisture in the next time around.
There haven't been any leaks in any art of the roof, or around the skylights. And as I said, this has developed really in the past year, with some visible progression this (very mild) winter and (very wet) spring.
There is really one main truss (6x6 exposed inside) essentially in the middle of the main part of the house, plus two smaller trusses ... and the ceiling beams are horizontal, not vertical.
See the attached photo for a better look at how the inside is setup... sorry about the quality; I didn't take it for this purpose. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif The skylights would be to your right in this photo.
Again, thanks for the knowledgeable answers. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Thanks to everyone for the responses... seems that from what I know now, it would be reasonable to suspect...
<font color=green>The sheathing not being staggered probably contributed to this
There probably isn't proper spacing between the plywood sheets
The skylights are probably allowing moisture in, which would contribute to the curling of the plywood (which happened because of improper spacing/lack of staggering).</font color=green>
The skylights were added about 10 years ago, after the house was built, so I think one of the first things I'll do is have those looked at, resealed, or whatever.
After that, I'll have someone take a small portion of the shingles off, in a problem spot, to further investigate the condition of the sheathing and determine when something needs to be done about it.
Seems that a reasonable solution to this, any way I slice it, is to replace the sheathing with proper grade/spaced/staggered plywood... that is, after I ensure the skylights aren't going to allow moisture in the next time around.
There haven't been any leaks in any art of the roof, or around the skylights. And as I said, this has developed really in the past year, with some visible progression this (very mild) winter and (very wet) spring.
There is really one main truss (6x6 exposed inside) essentially in the middle of the main part of the house, plus two smaller trusses ... and the ceiling beams are horizontal, not vertical.
See the attached photo for a better look at how the inside is setup... sorry about the quality; I didn't take it for this purpose. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif The skylights would be to your right in this photo.
Again, thanks for the knowledgeable answers. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Attachments
Argee
Silver Member
Re: What\'s up with this roof?
Muhammed,
I've been following this thread and taken a hard look at your roof pictures.
That said, the "H" clips are used between trusses (24"OC) to support the plywood for that span. They are not required for rafters (16"OC) or on trusses if the sheathing material is 5/8" or more.
Your picture depicts a classic example of improperly installed sheathing and also trapped heat and moisture. In looking at your ridge vent, it starts and stops along the peak. Is that for looks or do you have a return gable on the other side that requires it to stop? Usually a ridge vent runs from gable to gable stopping one foot short of the gable rakes.
Do you have ice dams in the winter months? This is a good sign of heat loss and poor ventilation.
Have you inspected between the trusses or rafters on the eave walls to insure proper flow of air from your soffit vents? Are your soffit vents adequate enough? Do they allow enough air to circulate through to the ridge vent to keep the underside of the sheathing dry? Are there baffles installed? A lot of times, homeowners will blow in additional insulation (cellouse, etc.) and unsuspectingly plug their eave passages. The results don't show up immediately, but gradually over time.
The final line is, the roof has to breathe. The next step for this roof is rotting sheathing which will show up when someone walks across it and ends up in your living room.
If the plywood is curled but not rotted due to inadequate ventilation the fix can be inexpensive. Correct the ventilation problem, remove all shingles and roll on 30# paper to smooth out imperfections before reshingling.
Muhammed,
I've been following this thread and taken a hard look at your roof pictures.
That said, the "H" clips are used between trusses (24"OC) to support the plywood for that span. They are not required for rafters (16"OC) or on trusses if the sheathing material is 5/8" or more.
Your picture depicts a classic example of improperly installed sheathing and also trapped heat and moisture. In looking at your ridge vent, it starts and stops along the peak. Is that for looks or do you have a return gable on the other side that requires it to stop? Usually a ridge vent runs from gable to gable stopping one foot short of the gable rakes.
Do you have ice dams in the winter months? This is a good sign of heat loss and poor ventilation.
Have you inspected between the trusses or rafters on the eave walls to insure proper flow of air from your soffit vents? Are your soffit vents adequate enough? Do they allow enough air to circulate through to the ridge vent to keep the underside of the sheathing dry? Are there baffles installed? A lot of times, homeowners will blow in additional insulation (cellouse, etc.) and unsuspectingly plug their eave passages. The results don't show up immediately, but gradually over time.
The final line is, the roof has to breathe. The next step for this roof is rotting sheathing which will show up when someone walks across it and ends up in your living room.
If the plywood is curled but not rotted due to inadequate ventilation the fix can be inexpensive. Correct the ventilation problem, remove all shingles and roll on 30# paper to smooth out imperfections before reshingling.
