When is rear ballast needed with a FEL?

[markie61]

Whoa! This picture really tells me a story!

The gap between the front grill & loader looks very large - several feet. The vertical mounts on the loader APPEAR further forward than the picture of the 7308 loader mounts in the NH brochure. ( the 7308 mounts are almost even with the brake pedals and deck edge in my catalog). I think whoever (Bird?) questioned whether it was installed too far forward may have a case....

Can the mounts be slid further back on the existing subframe? Is there room? Was the subframe installed backwards?

Bushhog or the installing dealer made a mistake: factory specs/applications/r&d wrong, installed incorrectly, wrong parts shipped - someone else, not you Danny! I can push 275lbs in a wheelbarrow (well.....almost /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif) If it can be adjusted, it should be done on the dealer's nickel. If it can't be remedied, it should be taken back by the dealer who should take $ from Bushhog to cover the dealer's time. Either way, it needs to be the dealer who intercedes.

Did you put this deal on your credit card? If so, you have a method of dispute available to you should things get ugly.....

Mark

 

[BigDave]

Mosey,

If the NH7308 Loader weighs 800lbs & the Bush Hog weighs 1500lbs, from your picture it looks like you are carrying most of the extra 700lbs in front of your front axle. Also, this may be an optical illusion but the rear & mid pivots of the 7308 looks to be further back.

Finally, my rear tires are loaded with ballast (so am I) and I've never lifted my rears off the ground or even felt close to the limit even while exceeding the limit of my loader. How do I when I exceed the limit...thet's when the loader won't lift of the ground. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[MikePA]

<font color="blue"> He referred me to a guy at Bush Hog in TN. So, I'll try to get somewhere with him tomorrow. </font>
A compromise position would be exchanging, perhaps for a fee, the M246 for an M146. Of course, the M146 has approximately the same specs as the 7308, but at least you will be able to lift something. I imagine that the M146 was designed to fit the Class II Boomers while the M246 was designed for the Class III?

If they allow this, the only way I'd accept it is if the dealer tests the loader first to make sure it can lift more than a few hundred pounds w/o the rear wheels coming off the ground.

Sometimes buying bigger, as in a FEL with more lift capacity, isn't always better. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[CTyler]

Reminds me of this...LOL! Sorry....couldn't resist.

 

[Mosey]

Mark - The distance from the front of the tire (the front most part of the tire, which I had to eyeball) to the end of the bucket (the tip of the cutting edge) is 57". I don't know what that measurement is on the NH 7308, but plan to go measure one at my first opportunity. Also, the BH M246 mounting post is definitely farther forward. The NH 7308 is almost touching the footpad. This extra leverage is probably a big part of the problem. It was JohnMiller3 who suggested it was mounted wrong. I checked and it's installed exactly according to the installation instructions and there's no other set of holes or anything and nothing is on backwards.

I wonder if that Donkey's name is Boomer!? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[markie61]

Just thinkin'.....

Hey, check out this thread.

Maybe you, RobertinNY, and Magnum can figure out some sort of swap thing with that spare loader.....

Mark

 

[WVBill]

Danny:
Put it in writing - to both the dealer who installed the loader and to Bush Hog. Include your pictures. Say something like: "When using the tractor and loader for it's marketed purpose and lifting less than the rated maximum capacity of the loader, the rear tires of the tractor are lifted off of the ground. This creates a significant and unacceptable safety hazard and the manufacturer and installing dealer will be held liable for any injuries to person or property resulting from their negligent design and/or installation practices."

Might get their attention, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer but I watch them on TV. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Mosey]

My dealer doesn't have any TC29s with a FEL in stock. So, I called the next closest dealer. He said he as a few in stock with the 7308 FEL. I asked him if they sell them with or without rear ballast and he said they usually don't have any rear weight on that small of a tractor and that it's not needed to lift the rated capacity of the loader. He said some folks will add the 300 lb rear wheel weights, but that's all they've ever needed. I'm going to try to drive over there at lunch and measure the distance from the front of the tire to the end of the bucket and test drive one and see if I can get them to put some weight in it so I can compare to the test I did yesterday. I really hate to "use them" that way, but I'm getting desperate. Plus, if I do end up buying wheel weights or something, then I'll buy them there instead of the dealer where I bought the tractor.

I called BH and talked to an engineer and got some more accurate numbers. The weight on the brochure is not the actual weight for the BH M246 mounted on a TC29D, the actual weight is 1377 lbs. Here's the breakdown:

Parts that stay on tractor:
Mounting kit: 410 lbs
Valve assembly: 42 lbs
Grill guard: 35 lbs
Total of parts that stay on tractor: 487 lbs
If you look at the picture above you can see that the mounting bracket is not very far back, it's only about a foot behind the front tire. So, very little of this weight is helping offset the weight in the bucket.

Parts that detach from tractor:
Main frame: 489 lbs
Quick Attach bucket system: 116 lbs
60" Heavy duty bucket: 285 lbs (the standard duty bucket is only 10 lbs less)
Total of parts that detach from tractor: 890 lbs

Grand total of weight of loader: 1377 lbs.

When I tried to look up the recommendations for adding rear ballast, the tractor manual said to refer to the FEL manual and the FEL manual said to refer to the tractor manual. When I told him that and asked what his recommendation was, he said there's no way to know for sure and that I just need to add weight until I feel there's enough. He also said they have a M246 on a TC29D with no weight on the rear and that they lifted 700 lbs with it. ??? I can't even lift a half bucket of sand!

I tried to call the BH sales manager, but got his voice mail.

 

[MikePA]

<font color="blue"> he said there's no way to know for sure and that I just need to add weight until I feel there's enough. </font>
Doing this might make a bad situation (almost useless FEL) much worse (broken tractor). Putting enough weight on the rear of the tractor, e.g., filled tires and wheel weights, might provide enough ballast to use the FEL at its rated capacity. Can the front axle handle that much weight? Do you really want to drive the tractor around with filled tires and wheel weights, all the time? If you don't go the wheel weights and filled tires route, the only other option is hanging something off the 3ph...all the time, except for the lightest materials. Kinda cuts down on the flexibility of the FEL, IMHO.

<font color="blue">He also said they have a M246 on a TC29D with no weight on the rear and that they lifted 700 lbs with it. ??? I can't even lift a half bucket of sand! </font>
Given your experience, I find this rather hard to believe, unless the person in the operators seat was a sumo wrestler! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

It it was me, I'd cut my losses and exchange the FEL for an M146 or the 7308.

 

[Mosey]

Mike - I agree with everything you say! I'm trying to return it and if I manage to do that, the only loader I will consider is a NH 7308! I've made a mistake and now I'm in deep water.

I went to the other NH dealer at lunch (took a long lunch). I did some measuring on a new TC29D with the 7308 FEL. The distance from the front of the front tire to the end of the bucket is 49". That's only 8" less than the BH M246, which surprised me. The back of the mounting bracket is 2" in front of the foot pad. So, I would say that leverage has some impact, but the main problem is the sheer weight of the BH M246.

I test drove it and the rear is not weighted at all (the salesman said there is no fluid in the tires and there are no rear weights). It was very easy to tell a difference in how it handled. When I raised the bucket empty and jerked the boom intentionally, the tractor does not bounce around near as much as mine does with the M246 and an empty bucket. When I test drove their tractor with the 7308 attached, it steers like mine does with the loader detached, whereas if mine has the loader attached it steers noticeably harder like it already has a load in it. I asked the salesman if he would help me do a test and he agreed. We both stood in the bucket and bounced up and down. We could not get the rear to even come close to coming up. He probably weighs about 210 lbs (I didn't ask him), so there wasn't as much weight as I had in the BH M246, but we were both bouncing in unison. I'll reduce the weight in the M246 and do the test again. But, he reassured me that just a few hundred lbs on the rear would be plenty enough to use the loader at its rated capacity. The BH guy said it would be at least 500 lbs, but he wasn't sure.