Which engine would you choose?

[Robert_in_NY]

Went to a dealer's open house yesterday. He had his personal tractor back on the lot for sale, a MF 5465 with 1700+ hours on it and a new 5460. I will have to say that they both beat out the 596 in the "creature comforts" area, but I really don't think I could justify one for myself. He was more than willing to sell me either one though .

As a side note there was a Montana rep there that was telling me that they would have a 87?? hp model out in Sept. The 70ish hp one that they had on the lot appeared to be quite a bit better made than I was actually thought it would be. He indicated that Montana was trying to get tractors introduced that would be big enough to run round balers ect.

I don't have any of the literature with me right now but what were some of the main areas you noticed between the 5465 cab and the 596 cab? I am kind of simple, as long as it has heat, ac, windows, good vision, comfortable seat (needs to be air suspension now though) and well thought out controls I am happy. If the exhaust pipe is ran up the corner post I am very happy then.

Montana is in the same boat as Mahindra. Neither make tractors that will work for my operation. They don't have a vineyard tractor in the 80 horse range and they don't have a 100 pto hp cab field tractor. I wish they did as the more options the better. On the plus side where I am I have Massey, Landini, Kubota, Case-IH, New Holland, Agco and Deere dealerships (multiple dealers for most of them) so I have plenty of options to choose from. And competition is a good thing for me.

 

[chh]

I don't have any of the literature with me right now but what were some of the main areas you noticed between the 5465 cab and the 596 cab? I am kind of simple, as long as it has heat, ac, windows, good vision, comfortable seat (needs to be air suspension now though) and well thought out controls I am happy. If the exhaust pipe is ran up the corner post I am very happy then.

The 596 doesn't offer the air suspension seat. You might be able to get it aftermarket, I have not checked. The exhaust is in the hood on the 596 and on the cab corner on the 5465. 2 doors on the 5465 and 1 on the 596. Power outlets in the 5465 and more fuel capacity. All the 5400 series cabs are mounted higher for better visibility. With all the trees on my place that may be a negative . Overall more room in the cab and the buddy seat option in the 5400 series. Radials on the 5400's and bias tires on the 500's. Easier to get under the hood for service on the 5400's. The side panels have twist lock releases and the 596 has bolt on panels. The Dyna 4 and higher hydraulic flows on the 5465 and a manual trans in the 596. The toplink is even of a higher quality and probably a few items I missed. All that said the price difference at the time I purchased the 596 was 10 grand less than the 5455 which is actually a closer comparision than the 5465. For a cattle operation and a baling tractor it is probably a better choice. I may think different by the end of the summer. But since I have been on a open tractor for years, just stepping up to a good A/C is a big upgrade.

When I was shopping I could not find a low hour tractor of this size anywhere close to me. In the last couple of weeks I've seen the 5465 with 1700 hrs, a 5460 with 600+ hrs and a 5455 with a low profile hood and 800+ hrs and I have not even been looking for a tractor . Nothing like good timing.

I agree on the Montana and Mahindra. Neither have a tractor really big enough for me. I have heard both are looking offer a tractor with more hp than the current lineup to appeal to the lower end of the AG market, but I guess we will see.

 

[jwcinpk]

The 596 doesn't offer the air suspension seat. You might be able to get it aftermarket, I have not checked. The exhaust is in the hood on the 596 and on the cab corner on the 5465. 2 doors on the 5465 and 1 on the 596. Power outlets in the 5465 and more fuel capacity. All the 5400 series cabs are mounted higher for better visibility. With all the trees on my place that may be a negative . Overall more room in the cab and the buddy seat option in the 5400 series. Radials on the 5400's and bias tires on the 500's. Easier to get under the hood for service on the 5400's. The side panels have twist lock releases and the 596 has bolt on panels. The Dyna 4 and higher hydraulic flows on the 5465 and a manual trans in the 596. The toplink is even of a higher quality and probably a few items I missed. All that said the price difference at the time I purchased the 596 was 10 grand less than the 5455 which is actually a closer comparision than the 5465. For a cattle operation and a baling tractor it is probably a better choice. I may think different by the end of the summer. But since I have been on a open tractor for years, just stepping up to a good A/C is a big upgrade.

When I was shopping I could not find a low hour tractor of this size anywhere close to me. In the last couple of weeks I've seen the 5465 with 1700 hrs, a 5460 with 600+ hrs and a 5455 with a low profile hood and 800+ hrs and I have not even been looking for a tractor . Nothing like good timing.

I agree on the Montana and Mahindra. Neither have a tractor really big enough for me. I have heard both are looking offer a tractor with more hp than the current lineup to appeal to the lower end of the AG market, but I guess we will see.

I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that you will see rebranded TYMs in the Montana lineup that will aproach 100 hp within the next year or so. Mahindra will be coming out with their own 82 hp cab tractor, but the jury is still out on how soon. Mahindra was supposed to have the tractor available this summer, but it doesn't appear it will. I don't think you will continue to see rebranded TYMs in the Mahindra lineup. Looks like for now 72 hp is as big as it gets for Montana and Mahindra.

 

[slowzuki]

Looked at a Deutz Agrotron 90 at an excellent price the other day, what an ugly tractor with a fantastic cab! I couldn't believe how well laid out it was and the visibility was exceptional. All the computers turned me off a bit as they will be a pain at high hours but man what a cab.

 

[mark.r]

I'm not sure how I missed this post, go figure. But I just asked the same question as Robert did of the 4 and 6 cylinder motors in the MF early today in another thread so disregard. I was referring the torqure issue specifically. That said, I have been back and forth to the MF dealer four times in the last three weeks and as of right now the 5465/5470 could get my money. I like the NH T5000/T6000 Series but I can't see them being cheaper than the MF's. I just realized that MF added the two larger 5475/5480's as well. Nice but 100/105 to the PTO was all I was ever looking for to begin with so . . . I also notice that they are offering a front 3pt lift/PTO on the 6 cylinder models. Very cool but I bet that option is $$$$$ no even considering an implement to run up there . . . if indeed you plan on running a moco or tillage implement up there which I assume are specially made and priced units??? I have really fallen for the MF 5400 series.

 

[art]

The torque would be most benificial with hills to climb or high variations of load on the PTO otherwise it would be of little or no value. For the most part while working a ag tractor you put it in one gear and go and you maintain consistant RPM's.

A way to look at the four to six cylinders is at rebuild you will have more parts to buy!
A higher output four cylinder might be of newer design with more then just two valves per cylinder, more then likely might be a nodular iron block much stronger instead of the older cast iron design.
I've seen varients of most all designs, things to look at for possibly some answers, plastic hoods have been being used since the 80's to reduce engine noise. Noisy engines normally are what I can unrefined or crude.

Robert, this isn't your first tractor and I think you will make a good choice with your knowledge of the industry.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Hi Art, I wasn't really keying in on one of these Masseys yet but I saw these two motor options for basically the same hp and tractor so I was curious why have two identical tractors with just the motor different. The people of the web have been great helping me learn why and now I know a few more things (yet I most likely have forgot a few more things in the process )

 

[Trac-Tech]

Slowzuki, the Landini Vision you mention is a Landini tractor with some of it's engineering ques from MF in the power shuttle hi-lo portion. After that it is a Landini tractor. The Landini plant at Fabbrico in Italy used to be owned by MF, but was sold in portions in the mid to late nineties.
I have had much more recent experience with this tractor and I can tell you that it is one of the best models that Landini currently produce from a reliability standpoint and wouldn't hesitate in recomending it to anyone.
The company is completely privately owned by the Mora family and has been for the 7-8 years or so. The Vision has been around since about 2002 and as I say has been a good tractor with little or no problems even now with higher hours on the clock. I don't know the spec of the tractor you take in the states, but we have power shuttle and hi-lo and hyd PTO with mechanical linkage control. However if the one you are looking at is fitted with electronic linkage, this is the Bosch system and is very very reliable as has been proven in MF and many other brands.
Robert, regarding two MF models almost the same with different engines mainly boils down to the marketing gurus and also you may find that one model may be better suited to different areas of your market and the other model the same (if that makes any sense) and hence that is why both models are available.

 

[slowzuki]

Thanks for the info, it is indeed fitted with power reverser, hi-lo, wet pto clutch and mech linkage. I could see the rubber plugs where the electro hydraulic hitch buttons go on upspec models. Also had the creeper option installed and a separate loader joystick with divertor so a total of 6 pairs of hydraulic couplers. If the cab was a touch bigger for a jumpseat it would be perfect. Still waiting on the Deutz Agrotron 90 I looked at, sounds like it sold though.

I don't know the spec of the tractor you take in the states, but we have power shuttle and hi-lo and hyd PTO with mechanical linkage control. However if the one you are looking at is fitted with electronic linkage, this is the Bosch system and is very very reliable as has been proven in MF and many other brands.

 

[Trac-Tech]

Slowzuki, you are most welcome.
If the Deutz Agrotron you mention is the German built model from Lauingen, then its probably not a bad tractor from all accounts. There was a model that came out of Treviglio in Italy which had a SAME Silver transmission and a Deutz water cooled engine. These models were made available because when the SAME Group purchased the Deutz Fahr co in the mid nineties, there were a lot of issues and this was a fill in model while they grappled with the issues of the original Agrotron.
I had a lot of experience with the SAME Silver with power shuttle and three speed clutchless shift which is essentially the same as the SAME version of the Agrotron with the SAME air cooled engine. It had some electronic problems for the power shuttle and the odd gear hardening issues when doing lots of heavy draft work in the range transmission. But still a good performer. Also this experience is 7 - 8 years ago now so I am sure things may well have changed for the better, or so we would hope.
Happy hunting.

 

[slowzuki]

The model is was looking at was the mark 3 agrotron, water cooled engine. From what I understand those first series were the problem childs of the series. It does scare me a bit, the computer controled powershift. I'm not sure how far away a tech would have to come from to diagnose a problem. Doubt they'd give an owner a copy of the software they use.

 

[art]

Your 7710 is a perfect example of a 100 horsepower four cylinder tractor engine that gives good power and longeveity.

 

[Renze]

The Sisu engines were notorious for fuel consumption, as well as the Ford 7710 engines. They do provide good torque backup.
The Perkins 100 hp 6 cylinder in the 3080 was known to be extremely gutless and outperformed in the field by a Zetor 6340 non-turbocharged 4 cylinder.
I'm talking about 5 to 10 year old models. Today it might be different.

A modern 4 cylinder turbo, can get the same results as a 6 cylinder engine, untill about 1000 rpm. that's where the turbo quits and the engine stalls. So what ?

 

[radman1]

As some of you know I just ordered a Case-IH Maxuum 125 PRO. The MF 54xx series is similar to the Maxuum line. The PRO has a few more amenities then the MF but MF is very similar to the nonpro or value Maxuum line. The Maxuum 110 (90 pto hp) uses a 2 valve, 4 cyl 273 cu diesel. The Maxuum 115 (95 pto hp) and 125 (105 pto hp) uses a 2 valve, 6 cyl 411 cu diesel.
The Maxuum 110 Pro and 130 Pro (110 pto hp) use a 4 valve high pressure common rail, 4 cyl 273 cu diesel. But the Maxuum 125 Pro and 140 Pro (120 pto hp) use a 4 valve high pressure common rail injection, 6 cyl 411 cu motor.
Like you guys noticed earlier with MF, there are displacement jumps between hp models. Why does the 125 Pro have a bigger displacement (411) than the 130 Pro with 273 cu?
The 411 cu motor is also carried into the Case-IH Puma line which is 135-180 pto hp and same injection system and 4 valve/cyl motor. The 411 motor in the 125 Pro I bought seems to having an easy life for the hp production. More longevity?
JD does the same thing. Most manufactures use about 3-4 engine displacements for most of their models. It appears that a single motor displacement can cover up to a 50hp range with modifications to injection system, turbo and aftercoolers.

 

[art]

Thats one nice sounding engine in the 125 pro's!

 

[slowzuki]

I'll steal Roberts thread a bit, I'm expanding my search into the MF42xx and 43xx models with the his-vis sloped hood option. The visibility is on par with the Deutz Agrotrons and they have an instructor seat option.

Lot of 2wd's on the market but I need a 4wd and hope to nab at least the 12x12 version if not the 24x24.

 

[chh]

I've had a MF 4243 for about 10 years now. It is an open station 2 wheel drive. It is the most fuel efficient and reliable tractor I have ever owned. Right after I bought the MF 596 I ran across a 4253 with cab/air ect. and just over 1000 hrs. I wish I had seen it first, because I have been very impressed with that series of tractors.

 

[Trac-Tech]

Hi Guys
I went to the original release downunder region for the 4200 series tractors in Alce Springs. The tractor with dry clutch was basically the same internally as the old 300 series from Coventry. When they released the hyd power-shuttle version, there were some problems with electronic controllers and I think lubrication issues with the clutch as well. I did not have much to do with it in the latter stages when I presume it was all fixed. The only issue with the early ones we started to see was with the odd 1 or 2 hydraulic pumps and there was a wheel on the gear for the speed sensor for the PTO to read from that would come loose occassionally. But, most of the issues from the 300 series were tidied up. The larger 6 cylinder 4270 had a reasonable lift capacity and tie rods over the top of the chassis to hold it all together when transporting up to 6 tonnes. All in all, not bad tractors.
Depeneding on your climate, you will need to watch the cooling of the hi vis models in hotter areas.
Hope this helps.

 

[slowzuki]

Not too hot here, we have about 30 days a year over 30 C, most of summer is 25-29 C. Winter is very cold though!

Have started searching around, there were a lot of 4200's and 4300's sold but very few for sale it seems. I have only found a half dozen for sale within 8 hours drive from here.

 

[slowzuki]

As a follow up, I've now driven a few MF 4245/4255's and have the following notes. The mech reverser is ok but seems to get clunky on the high hours units. The 12x12 tranny is nice but the range change off to the side of the normal pattern gets clunky around 2000 hours and hangs in the neutrals between ranges.

Great visibility, nicely laid out controls. Hood access isn't great, twist lock side panels.