Whole House Generators

[DocHeb]

We're considering an automatic transfer switch and natural gas backup generator for our new house under construction. I'd really like the automatic switch since there will be blocks of days when nobody will be home - and in Michigan the ice storms and thunderstorms are killers for rural electrical service. Does anyone have a permanent, whole house generator? If so, which brand? any problems? any thoughts?

 

[BHarrison]

The Home Depot in Baton Rouge has Generac Nat-Gas / LP Skid Mount Generators with auto transfer switch for less than $3000.00

Try an internet search on Generac Guardian.

 

[MossRoad]

The only thing I have ever heard of was someone with a generator having the power go off while they were away and the generator kicking on. The auto transfer switch didn't kick off for some reason when the power returned, so the generator ran for several extra days. It is probably a good idea to look into a system that either checks on the generator status periodically or sends out a notification periodically so that you will know if it is running, or you are on main power. Also, I would install the generator away from the house in a small outbuilding for fire protection in case it burns up, and for noise reduction. That is what I plan to do some day, when we build. For now, our generator is a small manual start unit.

 

[RonL]

Chris

Onan makes an excellent generator and switch. The critical thing is the switch should be UL listed. Most jurisdictions require a UL listed switch, and for good reason.

RonL

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Onan & Kohler both make excellent plants for the purpose you stated.
Generac and Coleman make immitations of generators that you will be sorry you bought.
Any plant you consider should have a transferr pannel that not only switches the load, but exercizes the generator regularly as well.
A couple other things you need to consider are propane tank size, and oil change. House size generators should not run faster than 1800 rpm, and the oil should be changed after 40 hours of operation. 3600 rpm machines do NOT have the capacity to start pumps and compressors without the engine doing a lot of extra work. Hi speed machines do not start motor loads as well as 1800 rpm machines because they have less rotating mass and therefore less inertia.
You should also install a notification system that will let you know when the genset takes over, and drops off. This will enable you to have someone keep an eye on the genset.
I recently learned, at the worst point in time, new furnaces do not work if the genset output is off frequency by more than 2Hz in either direction.
Another thing you need to be aware of, make sure your propane supplier will maintain your tank sufficiently full to keep your genset running for the duration of any expected outage. Large propane tanks are nice, but remember, propane tanks loose content at about 10% a year thru leakage. This is a known industry fact, but they don't like the buyer knowing it.
If you are even considering buying from Level Propane, quickly find another propane supplier. Level LIES CHEATS & STEALS FROM CUSTOMERS!!

 

[ric]

Check with your electric company before you do this. They may have a restriction on their use if you cannot be sure your house is isolated from the grid when its running. The reason is you could kill a lineman working on a line they think is dead. You will be liable for any injuries. It happened around here about two years ago.
What a tragedy. Good luck, ric

 

[ronjhall]

Franz
<font color=blue> I recently learned, at the worst point in time, new furnaces do not work if the genset output is off frequency by more than 2Hz in either direction.</font color=blue>
What type of furnace do you have that requires this precise frequency control?
I have a new 90+ 2 Stage Variable Speed American Standard furnace. That runs very well on my Honda 4000 watt generator.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I have a new oil fired boiler in the house, I installed in October. I LEARNED quick that the controls on the Becket burner are now a computer chip driven device, rather than the old relay operated system. My main generator was running at 66Hz, and that was sufficient to screw up the timing of the burner firing. The easy tipoff to the problem was when I noticed the clocks in the house gaining speed.

 

[ronjhall]

Franz
Thanks. I'll have to watch the clocks the next time I use my generator. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re:generator frequency

about generator frequency: you can get a frequency meter from radio shack or you can buy a multimeter from harbor freight that has frequency capability, i have used both, the radioshack meter just plugs into an outlet. this will let you check your frequency without difficulty and adjust motor rpm for max utilization, and frequency stability under various loads.

i have used this on my generators, my pto generator has one built in so it can be utilized continuously. they are very helpfull in adjusting your generator speed, and in setting your pto generator throttle. i usually set my speed about 1.75% above 60hz and this will compensate for different loads as they change and still remain in an acceptable range to run all equipment safely.

as far as the different names in generators, i think that manufacurers make different grades of equipment some light use, some industrial type units, i have had coleman, winco, generac, some cheap light use units and some high grade industrial units, i would not use a blanket statement of any brand is bad, they are built for an intended use, if you try to exceed the intended use they will fail, just like any other tool.

as fqar as the built in units, some come with transfer switches, some dont, most transfer switches will excercise your generator weekly which is a good thing, keeps the battery charged, and the internals lubricated. i have not seen any of these units that are light weight in construction. as far as the 1800 vs 3600 rpm generators, this seems to apply mostly to diesel generators, as the wear on the motor is much less as they will turn slower. i have looked over these units and decided to stay with a portable generator as i would be able to use it on my various buildings depending on need. i understand your need is different than mine and that you are more concerned about freezing pipes etc. when you arent at home.

good luck with your choice,

alex

 

[DocHeb]

Re:generator frequency

Thanks all for your replies. You're right about the transfer switches. I would absolutely need one since code doesn't let one be installed without. We need the auto-transfer switch since I'll be gone at work, and I need to keep by princess bride warm and toasty (not to mention my water pipes /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif). Mechanical skills (i.e. hooking up a portable generator) are not her strong point.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Have you considered any alternative approaches? For example, many of the gas wall furnaces (and vent free heaters) will operate with a millivolt thermostat in the absence of utility power. Many look like attractive fireplaces. My 30,000 BTU unit kept my whole house warm enough to be comfortable while we had no electricity after a recent ice storm. I'm sure it wasn't nearly as efficient as if the fireplace blower had been running, or as the main furnace would have been, but when you're running on your backup who cares if it costs a few dollars more to be warm. I'll bet if you set the backup furnace thermostat to 60 you would never have to worry about pipes freezing.

I was planning to fire up my generator for a few hours at a time to run the well and septic pumps, etc. You know, get a shower, do a load of laundry, whatever. But the outage only lasted about 6 hours and we didn't really need it. I might have felt different if I had a sump pump to worry about, but my footer drain runs by gravity out the front of the hill my house sits on.

Our stove, clothes dryer, water heater and kennel heater all heat with natural gas. While we can't do everything without power, we can do almost everything really necessary with limited power.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

This will stirr things up

I keep seeing this same posting, every couple months, where somebody wants to install a whole house/farm generator, using propane, or NG, or even a gasoline machine.
Since I had a copy of Rock & Dirt handy, I flipped thru it, and found there are many new entrys into this market, especially Kubota.
Southeastern Power Products, a Kubota Dealer, is currently offering a Kubota 6kw machine for $3350- along with others up to 40kw for $7995-. Frankly, if I were looking to put a plant in, and didn't have what I currently do, I'd be buying a Kubota. They are excellent machines, that treated properly, and cared for minimally, will outlive most of the people reading this. One thing I'm absolutely certain of, given the same care and maintainence, a Kubota will outlast 2 if not 3 Generacs, or Colemans.
If you look at it long term, why NOT buy a Kubota?
Check the site for yourself, www.southeasternpower.com/sepseries.htm
If nothing else, enjoy looking at the nice pictures and specs.
The prices on the web page are higher than the current sale prices listed in Rock & Dirt, so if you call to buy, mention Rock & Dirt.
By the way, I don't work for, or own stock in any of the companys mentioned. That oughta keep me from gettin sued.

 

[MDNY]

Re: This will stirr things up

Fran: Thanks for the post. You should register so you can continue to add neat info like photos as you find them. I am a building this year, and builiding rural calls for a generator to be put in. Most likely not in year one, but soon after.

 

[therrien]

DocHeb
What I learned about whole house generators.
If your going to put a fully automatic unit in, choose a unit that is 20Kiliwatts or larger. These units will have parts available for 30 plus years. Some catalog houses have units around 10k watts and parts are a definate problem.
Choose a unit that can run on natural gas or propane to have the least maintenance. Diesel is more economical but you have to deal with liquid fuel spoiling if the unit is not needed enough.
The units should be exercised at least once a week, but should not be a problem because these should have fully automatic controllers.
The control and switching system will accually cost the same or more than the generator itself, if the packaged units were not available.
I was given this imfo by multiple generator repair companies that had nothing to gain or lose. They all said that if you cant afford to put a real good system in, then you should stick to the small units and throw them away every 3-4 years even if they are working at the time.
This is just some stuff I'm passing on, not my recommendations. Good luck with your choice

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

DocHeb

I've seen a few installs of whole house generators, but not as many as you might think. What I have seen with increasing frequency is generator cut-off switches. The populatiry is still low in this locality with perhaps 1-2% of houses having them, so it hasn't become a trend yet. I'm seeing them turning up both in new constructon and as retrofits on existing construction, and I intend to install one in my new house.

Here, I don't think the whole house generators will turn up in major numbers due to cost. I expect most home owners will purchase smaller units and only run their furnaces, fridges and maybe water pumps.

SHF

 

[Anonymous Poster]

i would think that you need to decide on what you need to run, furnace, well pump, lights, microwave, and whatever you will use. that will tell you how much power you need. remember to size for motor startup amps, and a generator should be running at about 85% capacity formaximum efficiency.

then you need to decide about how you want to fuel the generator. gasoline/diesel have long term storage problems, you will need to rotate them frequently to keep them fresh, bad fuel is a significant reason for generator failure. propane/nat. gas will be there if you keep the tank full, or the pipline isent disrupted, you dont get as HP out of the motor with these fuels.

then you need to decide how you want it packaged, as a stand alone unit, or as a unit you can put into a shed that you will build on the property.

as far as diesel units, they are very expensive, and i would think would be placed in a situation where you will need to use them a large amount time before the cost would be justified. for the occasional power outage you will be just as well served with a nat gas unit, how many hours a year do you think you will need this unit? a diesel will run forever and a day, but will you ever need it to run forever and a day, and how much fuel will you need to store/preserve for example my 23hp diesel tractor will run about 6-8 hrs on a 7 gal of diesel fuel depending on the load, this would give you about 11kw of electric power. if you wanted to run this 24 hrs you would need to have 21-24 gal fuel per day,lets say 25 gal per day, a 200 gal fuel tank might be minimum to have on site. the fuel would need to be treated to store it, as it tends to gather water and grow algae if you dont have it treated. what would you do with 200 gal of fuel if you want to cycle it through , would you just run the generator or would you have another diesel motor that you could use it in. you neighbors might not like the noise of the generator at night.

so nat gas/propane sounds like a much more palatable alternative, you dont have to mess with it, its easy to store, in the case of nat. gas you have an unlimited supply as long as you pay your gas bill. these units are much cheaper. they are gasoline power plats with agas carburetor on them, and will last very long as i imagine that you would not put 100 hours per year/ you could expect 800-1000 hours on one of these motors, thats eight - ten years, and parts/replacement motors for a briggs/honda/onan/koehler are out there in great numbers.

just some food for thought, i would look at northern tool's site for some idea of prices on the various units that will help you as far as the difference in the units is concerned.

alex

 

[MossRoad]

<font color=blue>stick to the small units and throw them away every 3-4 years even if they are working at the time</font color=blue>

Our little coleman generator works just fine after 10+ years. The 8.5 HP Briggs engine works just fine as well. The only problem I have had was figuring out how to balance the legs when running one large 110v appliance. Solution was to put some lights on the other leg. The little generators are sold as emergency or portable backup generators and they work fine in that capacity. While I agree that they cannot be compared to true standby generators, what are their reasons for discarding them every 3-4 years?

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: This will stirr things up

I have come to a personal policy that precludes me from registering anyplace, or joining any group that would accept me as a member. I have had entirely too many bad experiences with registration, starting back in the era when registration delivered my a$$ to a nasty place called the Nam. Results from registration haven't gotten any better since.
I do not join groups as I have a track record of said groups collapsing shortly after I join, so in the intrest of the continuing operation of this site, I won't join.
I have no objection to participating in discussions, or sharing knowledge, and will continue to do so.
Hopefully, my position on registration and joining won't offend anyone too much, but if it does, so be it.

 

[MossRoad]

Re: This will stirr things up

If you put it that way, then, thanks for not registering /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif.