Why no Ecoboost in the F250?

[dodge man]

Thank you everyone for contributing to my post. My question has been answered ten fold.

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No, we’re not done beating that dead horse yet.

 

[deezler]

Diesels suck! Who even wants a reliable, fuel efficient, torque monster engine anyway?

Highly stressed, marginally strong enough, complicated GTDI (gas turbo direct-inject) engines for lyfe!

 

[deerefan]

Diesels suck! Who even wants a reliable, fuel efficient, torque monster engine anyway?

Highly stressed, marginally strong enough, complicated GTDI (gas turbo direct-inject) engines for lyfe!

While I understand your humor, there are some reasons we don’t own one any longer:
1. Initial cost-the truck we bought fit our one income budget. Had the truck been a diesel with the low miles, it would have been north of 45k easily.
2. Necessity-while we do farm, it is on a smaller scale. Nothing we own exceeds 12klbs and we rarely move the heavier equipment off the farm.
3. Maintenance and repair costs-diesels are much more expensive to maintain and repair. They have gotten too complex for the average guy like me to fix. I can easily work on the truck we bought.
4. Fuel cost-self explanatory

In our town, owning a diesel has become more of a social status symbol than a necessity, which of course drives prices up to unobtainable levels for us.

 

[Renze]

In our town, owning a diesel has become more of a social status symbol than a necessity, which of course drives prices up to unobtainable levels for us.

In our town (Europe) owning any full size pickup truck has become more of a social status symbol than a necessity. My V70 does everything the average half ton pickup truck does, owned by city folks. I just need to hook on a trailer because the boot is smaller than a pickup bed, but that means i dont haul around a ton of weight 98% of the time i dont need a bed, and i get 54mpg commuting.

With diesel slightly more expensive than gas in Europe for the first time ever, the fuel efficiency still saves me cost. I dont understand you guys complaining about maintenance cost, ive driven my new one 40.000km now, with no engine related repairs, just oil and filters. It holds as much oil as its gas fueled brother, but i never have to replace spark plugs, or the pencil type coils they put in 4 valve heads today. And both modern engines require a synthetic oil because of the hydraulic valve tappets.

And diesel being slightly more expensive to buy new, i understand that the heavy duty engine has a price. Thats why i think there should be a 4 liter Diesel available with 300hp, maxed at 3500rpm and peak torque as low as 1600rpm so you can tow at cruise speed where you have max torque. Such engine would be not as expensive to buy, but because the hotshots would want the full size diesels for status, they might become more affordable used.

Off course this engine would have to be as reliable as a 6.7 Cummins or my Volvo D5, i do understand an engine with a track record of the 6.0 powerstroke is high on maintenance.. For the rest, people here buy Diesel to save on maintenance and fuel. I wonder what goes wrong with US diesels when i hear you all complain about maintenance cost, did they sell that many lemons in the US ?

 

[deezler]

I wonder what goes wrong with US diesels when i hear you all complain about maintenance cost, did they sell that many lemons in the US ?

Frankly, yes, they did. Each level of additional emissions compliance introduced expensive new failure modes for the diesels in our HD pickups.

Even for engine generations which can still be generally regarded as "reliable", many folks would still end up doing full sets of injectors, or turbocharger replacements eventually. One thing for you to maybe keep in mind is that us Americans like to DRIVE. Like, a lot. I routinely see Duramax and Cummins-B pickups for sale used with 300-500k miles. Loads of people here across our rural states will do a 200 mile day to get to work, errands, kids to school, and back home, every single day. And of course the hot-shot guys drive for a living, cross country as much as possible. While I don't think it's unreasonable to do major services like injectors once you cross say, 200k miles, if you buy a lightly used truck and then have to do this service within a few years into your ownership, it makes the "maintenance" seem expensive. Or the Ford F250/350s that need complete front end suspension rebuilds every 40-50k miles. etc.

On the flip side though, my buddies new Ram 2500 Cummins needs $200 of filters every 8-10k miles, too. Plus Constant DEF drinking and 5 gallons of pricey synthetic oil. Thats a lot more than a gas anything.

 

[Renze]

Interesting. Apparently the exception that VW set with the 163hp 2.0 TDI biturbo, set the rule for American makers...

Injector failure ? Yes, a farmer who thought cheap fuel from the local supplier (with more subdidized biodiesel blended in than legally required, but less bacteria killer than required to keep the fuel stabile for more than a month, ruined 5 out of 6 injectors of his New Holland tractor.

From my offroad engine perspective (farm boy working in heavy equipment) i see diesels regaining their reliability in the last decade, since the widespread adoption of SCR instead of EGR. There were forerunners (FPT, Mercedes) and there were followers (John Deere, Cummins) but in the end, reliability is levelling out to normal now technology is maturing.

And spending some money on a 500.000 mile diesel truck, is your complaint legit ? Not all gas engines make it to that mark if they have to work regularly. Then you shouldnt complain about high maintenance cost, youre just buying worn out junk. With the rust rate of American autos, its just not worth fixing if it has done 500.000 miles already.

And Americans drive more ? I dont know who replied in this thread, who owned two volvos the same age as mine, but with less than 130.000 miles on them.. Here in Holland you wont find any with such low mileage, people who buy brand new cars, buy them to drive. If you drive less than 10k a year, you dont buy a brand new Volvo but buy an older one or you buy a compact.
There are some guys driving 850s on propane with a million kilometers on them.. So the shopping mall might be closerby than in the USA, if you drive for your work, you travel as much as the American salesman...

I am still puzzled about the DEF and DPF problems. I dont have DEF yet because i can run older cars with less maintenance cost than i would have depreciation on a newer vehicle, and maybe i buy vehicles at an age at which it is widely known what vehicle has specific issues, so i can avoid them.

And the fuel savings from tuning the engine for efficiency while having the SCR deal with the NoX afterwards, far outweigh the added cost of DEF. New Holland used to have EGR on their Tier 3 engines, but when they deleted the EGR to reduce PM and used SCR to deal with the NoX outside the engine, achieved impressive fuel savings.

The biggest issues with (not just) diesel engines in Europe was the race to the lowest fuel consumption and the lowest PM, which resulted in smoother bores so less oil would stick to the bore surface, with piston and liner coatings to make up for the loss of lubrication and sealing. At VW it has been an issue for several engine generations, and Peugeot isnt cleared of it either. But this wasnt reduced to just diesel, VW's gassers suffered just as bad from it.

Turbo problems, i only know them from clogging up due to EGR, or from low oil levels because users werent paying attention to the increased oil consumption of their engine because poorly lubricated piston rings to reduce oil consumption when new, wear out fast so they start consuming a lot of oil after 60-80.000km....

On the flip side though, my buddies new Ram 2500 Cummins needs $200 of filters every 8-10k miles, too. Plus Constant DEF drinking and 5 gallons of pricey synthetic oil. Thats a lot more than a gas anything.

Mine needs a long-life oil change every 30.000km or 18.500 miles. I prefer doing it 10.000 miles, and as said, screw fuel-saving 0w/30 because its using a ton of it; it costs more and it uses more, while i cannot measure a mileage difference between both oils.
I use the same kind and quantity of oil as my mates V70 gasser, but i get a way nicer ride with the torque i enjoy. I put in 6.5 liter at 14 euro, is 91 euro for an oil change. Thats .455 cents per km, while i save 2.5 to 3 cents per km on fuel vs a gasser, based on 20km per liter, and 1.85 euro per liter.

Either fuel is dirt cheap where you guys live so that you dont give a sh*t how much you use, or nobody knows the difference between purchase cost and operational costs...

 

[Farmer495]

While I understand your humor, there are some reasons we don’t own one any longer:
1. Initial cost-the truck we bought fit our one income budget. Had the truck been a diesel with the low miles, it would have been north of 45k easily.
2. Necessity-while we do farm, it is on a smaller scale. Nothing we own exceeds 12klbs and we rarely move the heavier equipment off the farm.
3. Maintenance and repair costs-diesels are much more expensive to maintain and repair. They have gotten too complex for the average guy like me to fix. I can easily work on the truck we bought.
4. Fuel cost-self explanatory

In our town, owning a diesel has become more of a social status symbol than a necessity, which of course drives prices up to unobtainable levels for us.

Pretty well my experience as well.

$130 oil change versus $30
Today: 1.57 / litre gas (4.58 USD a gallon) versus 1.82 / litre (5.31 USD a US gallon) My diesel didn't get better overall mileage my gas. If I towed all the time that might be different.

Diesel fitted my "wants" Gas fitted my "needs" and budget.

 

[deezler]

While I understand your humor, there are some reasons we don’t own one any longer:
1. Initial cost-the truck we bought fit our one income budget. Had the truck been a diesel with the low miles, it would have been north of 45k easily.
2. Necessity-while we do farm, it is on a smaller scale. Nothing we own exceeds 12klbs and we rarely move the heavier equipment off the farm.
3. Maintenance and repair costs-diesels are much more expensive to maintain and repair. They have gotten too complex for the average guy like me to fix. I can easily work on the truck we bought.
4. Fuel cost-self explanatory

In our town, owning a diesel has become more of a social status symbol than a necessity, which of course drives prices up to unobtainable levels for us.

Yeah I was just joking. I love the inherent qualities of a robust diesel engine, but I bought a gasoline 2500HD myself because of all your exact reasons above.

A couple months ago I was close to landing a used low-mile '20 3.5L ecoboost 10-spd (max tow, CC 6.5' bed, XLT sport) for $42k, but it got scooped up right as I made initial contact with the seller. I can't find anything close to that price since.

 

[blee03]

I wonder what goes wrong with US diesels when i hear you all complain about maintenance cost, did they sell that many lemons in the US ?

People are just buying the wrong ones, then they get hit with trying to keep them running. I've had 4 Cummins trucks, (96,03,06,12) all with really high miles. (250k-420k) Never replaced turbo, head gasket, injectors, lift pump, injection pump, etc. on any of them. I opt'd to put built transmissions / torque converters in 2 of the 4 for extra performance. They are GREAT engines. The best, bar none IMO

My maintenance cost has always been low for the engines, regular oil changes and a fuel filter change once a year. The most costly maintenance I've had to keep up on for them was the front suspension. (ball joints, wheel bearings, track bar, etc.)

 

[Renze]

$130 oil change versus $30
Today: 1.57 / litre gas (4.58 USD a gallon) versus 1.82 / litre (5.31 USD a US gallon) My diesel didn't get better overall mileage my gas. If I towed all the time that might be different.

Diesel fitted my "wants" Gas fitted my "needs" and budget.

The 30 dollar oil change, in todays money, sounds like you have a 25 year old four banger without VVT, GDI or hydraulic tappets which takes 4.5 liter of mineral 15w/40.

1.57 vs 1.82 means Diesel is 16% more expensive than gas, while i gain about 35% in fuel economy versus my mates gasser (same car other than the combustion process: even the basic engine block is the same, mine just has cast-in iron liners) In Holland, both Diesel and gas are around 1.92 euro at the moment.

Off course if i'd compare my mates 2.4 gasser to a BMW 4 liter V8 turbodiesel, it would be different, and i think thats what youre doing when comparing a 6.2 gasser to a Cummins 6.7 with twice the torque. Thats why i think theres an opportunity for a smaller diesel, more suitable for 3/4 ton truck duty: Leaner when driving empty but with torque down below at cruising rpm, like mine.

 

[Renze]

My maintenance cost has always been low for the engines, regular oil changes and a fuel filter change once a year. The most costly maintenance I've had to keep up on for them was the front suspension. (ball joints, wheel bearings, track bar, etc.)

My maintenance costs are low too, i purposedly bought the 163hp version and not the 185 or twin turbo 220hp version: I dont need that power, and people who thought they needed it when buying the car new, probably werent nice to it with regards to warming up of a cold started engine, or idling a hot engine when coming off the highway for a gas station stop.

 

[Farmer495]

The 30 dollar oil change, in todays money, sounds like you have a 25 year old four banger without VVT, GDI or hydraulic tappets which takes 4.5 liter of mineral 15w/40.

1.57 vs 1.82 means Diesel is 16% more expensive than gas, while i gain about 35% in fuel economy versus my mates gasser (same car other than the combustion process: even the basic engine block is the same, mine just has cast-in iron liners) In Holland, both Diesel and gas are around 1.92 euro at the moment.

Off course if i'd compare my mates 2.4 gasser to a BMW 4 liter V8 turbodiesel, it would be different, and i think thats what youre doing when comparing a 6.2 gasser to a Cummins 6.7 with twice the torque. Thats why i think theres an opportunity for a smaller diesel, more suitable for 3/4 ton truck duty: Leaner when driving empty but with torque down below at cruising rpm, like mine.

3.5 ecoboost, think it's got some fancy technology or something

Todays money, couple months ago actually.

5 litres full synthetic 5W30, $17.99 on sale at Canadian Tire (store that sells next to nothing made in Canada and tires that I wouldn't let their garage touch my car to install)
Ultra Synthetic Fram filter, $11.45 on Amazon with free delivery.

420 ft/lb ecoboost is a bargain oil change compared to my 500 ft/lb 7.3 powerstroke.

 

[sd455dan]

3.5 ecoboost, think it's got some fancy technology or something

Todays money, couple months ago actually.

5 litres full synthetic 5W30, $17.99 on sale at Canadian Tire (store that sells next to nothing made in Canada and tires that I wouldn't let their garage touch my car to install)
Ultra Synthetic Fram filter, $11.45 on Amazon with free delivery.

420 ft/lb ecoboost is a bargain oil change compared to my 500 ft/lb 7.3 powerstroke.

Deleted

 

[Hay Dude]

People are just buying the wrong ones, then they get hit with trying to keep them running. I've had 4 Cummins trucks, (96,03,06,12) all with really high miles. (250k-420k) Never replaced turbo, head gasket, injectors, lift pump, injection pump, etc. on any of them. I opt'd to put built transmissions / torque converters in 2 of the 4 for extra performance. They are GREAT engines. The best, bar none IMO

My maintenance cost has always been low for the engines, regular oil changes and a fuel filter change once a year. The most costly maintenance I've had to keep up on for them was the front suspension. (ball joints, wheel bearings, track bar, etc.)

It took me too long understand what all the Cummins hype was about. Now that I own a few of them, I can see why people are so devoted to them. Anything Cummins powered becomes more appealing than other power plants

 

[Renze]

3.5 ecoboost, think it's got some fancy technology or something

Todays money, couple months ago actually.

5 litres full synthetic 5W30, $17.99 on sale at Canadian Tire (store that sells next to nothing made in Canada and tires that I wouldn't let their garage touch my car to install)
Ultra Synthetic Fram filter, $11.45 on Amazon with free delivery.

420 ft/lb ecoboost is a bargain oil change compared to my 500 ft/lb 7.3 powerstroke.

5w/30 fully synthetic is prescribed by Ford for the EB. Youre getting that for 17.99 per 5 liter ? And does it meet the specifications required by Ford, or is it just any low grade 5w/30 ?

I can get oil at the dollar store too, with the same viscosity. Just not the same API class, its an oil approved for light duty use. Good enough for your grocery getter that gets changed once a year before it has driven the miles, but not when you change oil because youve put the max miles on it.

http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/vdirsnet/OwnerManual/Home/Content?variantid=4163&languageCode=en&countryCode=USA&Uid=G1835537&ProcUid=G1835538&userMarket=USA&div=f&vFilteringEnabled=False

 

[3930dave]

5w/30 fully synthetic is prescribed by Ford for the EB. Youre getting that for 17.99 per 5 liter ?

I don't know what that poster bought exactly, but Can Tire normally does not sell the SC rated (1930 engines) gasoline motor oil you may find in some dollar stores.

CTC has some house-brand synthetics (there are few refineries in Canada, and not many more in USA, so anything legit is coming from pretty much the same places) that can be lower-priced, but to address your cost question, a good quality synth 5w30 these days would be well priced at roughly twice that price here. Canadian costs are often higher than the USA, and like most of the World, have taken a significant hike in the last 2 years on most things.

That poster may have stocked up during a really exceptional Sale (Boxing Day here, Black Friday.....) @ $17.99/5L.

Rgds, D.

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

High maintenance on a diesel is a fallacy.

Buy a good diesel that doesnt require maintenance.

6bt should make it to half million miles with just oil, filters, belts and idler pully or 2.

Then pull the head. Check the injectors. Check valve seats and go another half million.

 

[3930dave]

High maintenance on a diesel is a fallacy.

Buy a good diesel that doesnt require maintenance.

6bt should make it to half million miles with just oil, filters, belts and idler pully or 2.

Then pull the head. Check the injectors. Check valve seats and go another half million.

Can you lend me a working Flux-Capacitor ?

Rgds, D.

 

[Hay Dude]

High maintenance on a diesel is a fallacy.

Buy a good diesel that doesnt require maintenance.

6bt should make it to half million miles with just oil, filters, belts and idler pully or 2.

Then pull the head. Check the injectors. Check valve seats and go another half million.

It’s not hard to find Cummins diesels with 1/2 million miles on them, even in hard service applications.
Farm tractors with 15,000 hours not uncommon.

 

[oliver1555]

It’s not hard to find Cummins diesels with 1/2 million miles on them, even in hard service applications.
Farm tractors with 15,000 hours not uncommon.

And no reason to pull the head unless exhibiting symptoms of a problem.