Why not make a fixed ROPS foldable???

1savoy · Mar 16, 2006

Henro,

I agree. Cut them if that what someone needs. I do not always think what the manufacturer designs is the best, strongest, etc. If my memory serves me, John Deere just started replacing loader brackets on their new loaders due to problems breaking. Who wants a bucket full of material falling off a tractor? and I think too many people worry way too much about liability issues. When your number is up, it is up. Just my 2 cents.

Henro · Mar 16, 2006

As a follow up...

As far as the liability question goes...well, I can understand the concerns the way our society has evolved. But...

I do question if the liability of modifying a ROPS by adding a hinge that duplicated what the OEM does would be any more of a concern than making a repair to a vehicle that was in an accident, for example. Or say welding up a frame on an old vehicle.

Would a qualified welder refuse to weld on a ROPS but weld on a tractor or truck frame? I really don't know. Somehow I kind of doubt it, almost to the extent that I am starting to think this could be an urban legend, welders refusing to weld on a ROPS. I would be curious to know if anyone actually had a welder refuse to do something for them for liability reasons. I mean it would be a great excuse to turn down a job that the welder did not want to bother with, if you know what I mean.

The point I was trying to make was that I would be willing to take the risk of modifying a ROPS if I wanted to, as the reality of the matter is that the modification would not weaken the ROPS structure. I know it can be argued that one has not proved that the structure was not weakened, but in a sense it would have been proven by the orginal OEM design which was copied.

I really have no interest in racing cars, but there are people who do this and install roll cages and so on in vehicles for racing/recreational purposes. Is there a liability concern in these cases? I don't know but do know a lot of people are doing these things, and I doubt they are all doing the welding themselves. Many do it themselves, but some are doing it and getting paid to do it for others. How would welding up a roll cage for someone be different than modifying a ROPS on someone's tractor? Granted the roll cage is an addition, while the hinge on a ROPS would be a modification. But both are installed for the same purpose, protection of the operator of the vehicle.

These are all questions that I have in my mind. Common sense, if I have any, tells me that it should be possible to make a modification like converting a fixed ROPS to a foldable ROPS without too much worry. Especially for one's personal use.

I guess all I am trying to say is the ROPS police really don't exist, and perhaps the liabilty issue of making a ROPS modification doesn't either, in reality, even though it sure seems like it might in today's America...

Did I just say the ROPS Police don't exist??? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Sounds like I might need to start another thread! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

HarleyScooter · Mar 16, 2006

Henro, I just finished a JD2305 fixed ROP's to foldable. There is a thread in the JD owning & operating section with pictures. I think if you use a good hinge design you would be ok.

Soundguy · Mar 16, 2006

( Ther is no law that requires a ROPS So how does one violate a law that don't exist? )

Situations are different between personal use and employee use. You had better check those books. If you let an employee use a piece of equipment.. it better have a rops.. an unmodified rops.. unless you feel like handing the keys to everything you own over to their lawyer and family after the employee dies and they find out there was a non certified mod to a safety device. if you did get lucky, and the lawsuit left you with any assets, I'm sure the osha fine would handle the spare change...

I work for a gc.. and we do local/state/federal work. This kind of an issue comes up quite often...

Soundguy

Soundguy · Mar 17, 2006

( do question if the liability of modifying a ROPS by adding a hinge that duplicated what the OEM does would be any more of a concern than )

Probably a concern to a trial lawyer trying to prevent his clients company from shelling out an insurance payoff if he can prove some negligence on the side of the owner.. etc..

It's not that the material may be weaker.. it is that it is an uncertified mod.. that's the issue.

( I would be curious to know if anyone actually had a welder refuse to do something for them for liability reasons. )

I've had welders and machinist's refuse to work on brake parts and axle housings of on road vehicles. Everything from brazing up pin holes in hard lines to welding up trivial cracks in castings/ forgings.. that if located elsewhere would have been no problem being welded..

Had these specific 2 issues occour this past month. So yes... I've seen welders refuse to do work that had liability concerns tied to it...

How about this one.. ask a brake repair center to go ahead and shave that rotor down true even if it takes it 1% out of spec... if they are worth their salt.. they will say no... even if that rotor would still be otherwise 'normally' serviceable... etc..

Soundguy

BadDog · Mar 17, 2006

Concern over liability seems pretty pointless to me, unless your objective is to modify the ROPS, get into an accident, hurt yourself, blame the ROPS, and sue the manufacturer of said ROPS. There's a nitwit's plan if there ever was one.

It's your equipment. Do entirely what you want with it and use it however you want. You might void the warranty, you might do lots of things... but SO WHAT? IT'S YOUR EQUIPMENT!!

Two simple rules:
1. You and only you are responsible for your actions. So long as you realize and accept that, DO IT!
2. If you're worried that you might hurt yourself or others, and you're not willing and prepared to take that chance with appropriate actions and expensive insurance coverage, DON'T DO IT (whatever IT is).

Personally, I say go for it. Life is too short to keep banging the top of the dang ROPS into the door frame of your garage just because the ROPS is 3 inches too high or the garage is 3 inches too low (pick one depending on the mood you're in while you're mending the garage door frame for the 3rd time).

How many people leave their already foldable ROPS down all the time for this very reason? ROPS is a great safety idea, but ROPS implementation was done by a complete nitwit (probably in conjunction with a herd of attorneys) who couldn't be bothered to measure the height of the average garage door or person, or make the ROPS really, really easy to lower and raise. We CUT drivers do not all have big barn doors to drive our little toys through for safekeeping.

Now, just ask me how I really feel!!! Piffle!!!

NY_Yankees_Fan · Mar 17, 2006

( Ther is no law that requires a ROPS So how does one violate a law that don't exist? )

OSHA "not a small town in Wisconsin" says this OSHA ROPS

So if you are an owner of equipment and you let an employee use it, LOOK OUT the OSHA ROPS police will get you. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

"1928.51(d)
That the ROPS model was tested in accordance with the requirements of this subpart."

So if you modify the ROPS you void the test used to test the ROPS since it did not have your modification when it was tested.

Woody_NH · Mar 17, 2006

Two years ago I was considering buying a used tractor from a friend. As it had a fixed ROPS I asked two local metal fab/welding shops about a modification to make it folding. Both flat refused for liability reasons.

1savoy · Mar 17, 2006

BadDog,

Well said. My feelings exactly.

SoundGuy,

As a matter of fact I have had more than one set of rotors turned down past spec and not have any problems. Most of todays rotors just need to be scrapped when they are scored or warped, but older rotors cut past spec will probably out last cheap new rotors. The best set that comes to mind is on a 1977 Dodge Power Wagon 4x4 I bought in CA in 1993 and drove home to NY. The rotors had to be turned way down, but I told the parts store lets give it a try. The rotors are still on the truck and doing well. It is not a daily driver now, but is stuck in plow duty.

Woody,

I think some welding shops may turn you down for the reasons Henro mentioned. If they are a busy shop, they may not want to mess with a modification like this. They may also not know who they are dealing with and do not want to take a chance. I know for a fact I could find a local welding shop that would handle the job.

RonR · Mar 17, 2006

I think part of the refusal is the scope of the incident: If you have a weldor weld up a plow that's broken, and his welds later give way, you can take it back, he'll apologize and fix it again.

If he rebuilds your rops, and it "breaks", a lot of significant stuff could have happened to both the tractor and who was operating it. Much harder to fix, and will involve $$$$ enough to make people start looking for who to blame (ie, pay for it).

The other thing is your modded rops liability will survive you. Fine if you want to take the risks, and if I mod mine, I'd let my kids drive it as well. NEVER would I let anyone else drive it. And when you sell the tractor, your mod will continue to carry, in my mind, YOUR liability to whoever operates it.

Too risky for me. Even though the chances of something bad happening are way low, I don't want to chance it.

ron