will it take off?

DieselPower · Nov 10, 2006

shaley said:
Well how do planes fly in a wind tunnel. That plane is sure sitting still just like the palne on the conveyor and they fly.
Did you look at Uler's equation. Rhymes with boiler not ruler.

This is nothing like the question in hand. In a wind tunnel air is being forced over wings by gigantic fan's. Large amounts of air moved over the wing make it lift off.

shaley · Nov 10, 2006

DieselPower said:
This is nothing like the question in hand. In a wind tunnel air is being forced over wings by gigantic fan's. Large amounts of air moved over the wing make it lift off.

Oh really. Props, Fans. Stationary airplanes. I thought there was a connection. But OK I was just throughing that out to cause some thought.

DieselPower · Nov 10, 2006

Let's study the theory of Flight and Bernoulli's equation.

"In order for an aircraft to rise into the air, a force must be created that equals or exceeds the force of gravity. This force is called lift. In heavier-than-air craft, lift is created by the flow of air over an airfoil. The shape of an airfoil causes air to flow faster on top than on bottom. The fast flowing air decreases the surrounding air pressure. Because the air pressure is greater below the airfoil than above, a resulting lift force is created. To further understand how an airfoil creates lift, it is necessary to use two important equations of physical science."

Theory of Flight

MIT ends the debate in my book. I'll let you argue with the mathematician's on wether or not to change the principles of science.

shaley · Nov 10, 2006

Speaking of flying. Shot this last spring. These fish are only 2 years old and they have learned this quite fast. Check out what is the the lower Tuna's mouth. It's hard to see in a low res version. It is a fish with wings in place of pec fins (about a 6" span) that get up out of the water and fly in order to escape. (sometimes).

HTWT · Nov 10, 2006

"a plane is standing on a movable runway( something like a conveyor).

as the plane moves

the conveyor moves but in the opposite direction.the conveyor has a system that tracks the speed of the plane and matches it exactly in the opposite direction.

What part of "as the plane moves" keeps the plane stationary.

Tom_Veatch · Nov 10, 2006

DieselPower said:
...
I'll let you argue with the mathematician's on wether or not to change the principles of science.

Errr...Uhhh, would that principle of science be Newton's 2nd Law of Motion? F=M*A or, in other words, A = F/M?

shaley · Nov 10, 2006

HTWT said:
"a plane is standing on a movable runway( something like a conveyor).

as the plane moves

the conveyor moves but in the opposite direction.the conveyor has a system that tracks the speed of the plane and matches it exactly in the opposite direction.

What part of "as the plane moves" keeps the plane stationary.

I thought it was the part of the conveyor moving in the opposite direction.

shaley · Nov 10, 2006

DP. The theory of Flight. The continuity equation is the basis of why I think it will fly.

Tim_in_IA · Nov 10, 2006

Tim_in_IA said:
The plane wont take off. The first post says that the conveyor matches the speed of the plane. If that is true, then there is no lift since the plane is standing still in the wind....

If the plane could go faster than the conveyor then it would take off, but since it can't it doesn't. That is interesting to think about though.....

Okay, after writing this I was on my hour commute home, and I realized that maybe this isn't this simple. There is almost a paradox here that the plane has to be moving at all for the conveyor to move the other direction. It is like a word problem, the answer is in the question.

I also began to understand those that said the wheels didn't make one bit of difference. The engines made forward thrust and the wheels would just be spinning much faster than normal. I retract my stationary argument and say that it will fly. I need a beer after that one....

TrippleT · Nov 10, 2006

If it is a harrier jet it will fly LOL . Now watch the fireworks!

sandman2234 · Nov 10, 2006

755inNY said:
You missed another very important consideration. Is the transmission manual or hydrostatic?

Jeff

Not being a hyrdo kind of person, I thought the "what gear" would have covered that part of the question. Only hydrostatic I have ever run is my Steiner and I usually run it flat on the floor, one way or the other.
Thanks for covering for me!
David from jax

ovrszd · Nov 11, 2006

MrJimi said:
There should be nothing to this.
Because a Plane WILL NOT fly without airspeed and on a treadmill? Ya wont have that.
FAA licensed Pilot and Instrument rated!!
Ask any pilot, bring on the pilot replies
Jim

Remind me to always ask who the pilot is when I fly, don't want to be piloted by a man that believes his plane is propelled by the wheels rather than it's air propulsion system. heheheheh.

Reminds me of a day in Alaska when the runways were covered with ice so slick that people had to crawl on all fours to get around. F16s were landing and taking off like nothing was wrong. How'd they do that???? Hmmmm.

Non pilot, non licensed and still don't know what all those instruments are for???

ovrszd · Nov 11, 2006

jwnge said:
All I know is I ain't standin in front of that plane when the pilot revs up the engine....

Put me in this group!!!!

ovrszd · Nov 11, 2006

jwstewar said:
Why does everyone keep missing the point the plane will be moving? It isn't driven by the wheels. The prop/jet engine propels it. Again the wheels will just spin faster. If the plane lifts at 300 MPH then the wheels will be doing 600 MPH but the wings and the rest of the plane will be doing 300 MPH.

Once you realize that specific point in your mind, this all becomes clear doesn't it. The plane is driven by air propulsion and could care less what the tires are doing. Sure is fun watching people struggle with it though isn't it!!!

turnkey4099 · Nov 11, 2006

ovrszd said:
Once you realize that specific point in your mind, this all becomes clear doesn't it. The plane is driven by air propulsion and could care less what the tires are doing. Sure is fun watching people struggle with it though isn't it!!!

Yeah! And I don't know if this has been mentioned but - The plane would take off even if it were on skids or had brakes locked as long as it had enough power to overcome the friction.

Harry K

Egon · Nov 11, 2006

Whats that old saying;

" The wind in my sails " or is it " The wind beneath my wings "

RayH · Nov 11, 2006

turnkey4099 said:
Yeah! And I don't know if this has been mentioned but - The plane would take off even if it were on skids or had brakes locked as long as it had enough power to overcome the friction.

Harry K

Most small planes dont have enough thrust to overcome their brakes.

Tom_Veatch · Nov 11, 2006

RayH said:
Most small planes dont have enough thrust to overcome their brakes.

Not on dry pavement, but on ice its another story. I've also had 'em start to slide on wet grass during engine runup. Of course, technically thats not "overcome(ing) their brakes".

RayH · Nov 11, 2006

Heres one for you science types.
You're in A jet traveling faster than the speed of sound. You get a radio call from a stationary tower on the ground. Can you hear it and can you reply to it?
Then you get another call from a jet traveling the same direction at the same speed as you. Can you talk with the other Jet on the radio?