Winter Driving Tips

[RSKY]

Not an expert by far but the best thing I've ever owned for ICE was a front wheel drive car. It was also possibly the worst vehicle I've ever owned on snow of any depth. With my left foot putting a little pressure on the brake and right on the gas it would track where ever I had it pointed.

With my pickups I usually shoveled snow in the bed until I had enough weight to give a little traction. But it was always a scary drive.

I worked for three different tire manufacturing companies during my life. One of the hardest customers to please was Land Rover. If I remember correctly they had specifications for dry pavement traction (both starting and stopping), wet pavement traction, ice traction, and were the only company that had a specification for wet grass traction.

Just rambling here.

RSKY

 

[/pine]

Had a foreman that would say the difference of 2 whl and 4 whl drive was 10 feet and dug in deeper.
ken

I always heard that the difference was when you get a 4x4 stuck...you're really stuck...!

 

[2ndhalf]

The best thing he could do, and not kiddding here. is trade the truck on an old Subaru of any variety. The Suburu AWD system is 2nd to none. Have had several and they will run right past any 4wd in ice and hard pack snow. Very good in snow depths up to 8 inches if you get one with clearance.

I have had 4 different Subies and only do not own one now due to the Oil consumption issue with the 2010 - 2015 models. I will own one again when that is for sure resolved. My Outlander SAWD is very good but not Subaru good.

 

[oosik]

When I belonged to the 4WD club in Anchorage - we had a saying. 4WD will get you a place where NOBODY can come to help.

 

[MossRoad]

.....

Also good to find an abandoned large parking lot. Go play. Practice loosing control and corrections. Learn the limits of the vehicle and limits of driver skill.

That right there is the best advice possible. My parents did it with me, and I did it with my kids. And the first time or two it snows each year, I try and do it again just to get used to it again. Your winter skills get rusty over the summer.

 

[MossRoad]

How can any of you tell people to not use brakes and instead downshift, and then turn around and say 4wd won't help stopping? If the 4wd drive train is engaged, and you downshift, won't engine braking be applied to the entire drive train? What am I missing? :confused3:

 

[jbrumberg]

Once the tires lose traction in FWD, RWD, AWD, or 4WD and start sliding/hydroplaning on ice braking and downshifting is just an exercise in futility in stopping. One may be able to change the course with steering, downshifting, and braking; but it's a function of vehicle momentum and the coefficient of tire/ice/water friction that brings the vehicle to a stop.

Studded snow tires may help to a degree due to increased road-ice/water tire friction.

Hitting a stationary heavier object will definitely stop the sliding or at least slow the sliding depending object mass and/or degree of structure bonding to the ground surface.

 

[bunyip]

One of the hardest customers to please was Land Rover. If I remember correctly they had specifications for dry pavement traction (both starting and stopping), wet pavement traction, ice traction, and were the only company that had a specification for wet grass traction.

Just rambling here.

RSKY

Best off road vehicle there is spending more time off road repairing broken axles or dodgy electrics:laughing:

 

[JK22]

How can any of you tell people to not use brakes and instead downshift, and then turn around and say 4wd won't help stopping? If the 4wd drive train is engaged, and you downshift, won't engine braking be applied to the entire drive train? What am I missing? :confused3:

I downshift to prevent a slide, not necessarily to recover from one (although that works, just not as well). I haven’t given much thought to whether 4wd helps in that regard... Hmmm... might have to experiment with this...

 

[CobyRupert]

Regarding ABS.....

this topic seems to come up alot also. Boggles my mind the number of people that "claim" they hate ABS.
Sure, back in the 1990's......With some only having real wheel ABS, or 2-3 channel ABS....while better than none....wasnt that great. But about everything made in the last decade has true 4-wheel ABS. All 4 wheels have sensors.....and the computer knows the split second that a wheel locks up.....and releases brakes a little to JUST THAT WHEEL. Something you just CANNOT do without abs.

On ANY modern vehicle.....I'd bet thousands of dollars that on snow and ice......you CANNOT stop the vehicle faster if you were to disable the ABS. And ABS is GREAT for maintaining control when stopping.

People that claim to "hate" ABS.....just dont understand how it works.

And automatic vs manual........give me the automatic. Driving on slick dangerous roads....you have enough to worry about.

I'd take that bet.
I think ABS are great on dry pavement, allowing people to steer and brake.
Yes, I know how they work.
I've experienced it pulsating the brakes. And I've experienced that the stopping power of the ABS releasing the brakes was lesser than if my studs where just locked and digging in.
You can feel it plain as day when on ice you go from braking, deceleration, to when the pedal starts pulsating and there's no more feeling of deceleration, and you're not stopping.

Wikipedia sources (notated) says: "ABS generally offers improved vehicle control and decreases stopping distances on dry and slippery surfaces; however, on loose gravel or snow-covered surfaces, ABS can significantly increase braking distance, although still improving vehicle steering control."
Anti-lock braking system - Wikipedia

 

[MossRoad]

Another thing I can think of that has saved a stop sign post or two, is to look for escape routes BEFORE you need them, should you have to think fast. For example, you're approaching a stop-sign on a downhill, and here comes a car from your left, trying to make a right turn towards you, but missing the turn and sliding across your lane. You have no where to go, and you have to slam on the brakes, and your lane is icy. So, look for the areas between and next to the icy tire tracks in your lane and see if there's grippable snow in there. Look at the area right next to the curb. It may not be slicked up by stopping cars. Look at the area to the right of the stop sign. Is it just someone's lawn and bushes? Go for it! Several times I've had to dive to the right of a stop sign to avoid being hit. I've damaged a rim or two over the years, too, but it beats damaging the left front corner of your vehicle, or being hit in the driver's side door.

 

[4570Man]

A deductible is $1000 ( at least for me). The ditch doesn’t sue or raise insurance rates.

 

[2ndhalf]

I can't speak for all ABS systems but the ones I have used in my newer cars are fantastic! Have saved me from numerous slides through stop signs. The thing I like the most about ABS is that it alerts you very quickly that you are in a slide situation; to which my reaction is always to eas up on the break a little but not so much that I don't still get stopped.

I know for a fact my ABS acts more quickly than I do; can't speak for yall.

 

[MossRoad]

Throw in ABS with stability control, and you have something when it comes to emergency maneuvering...
I'm pretty convinced those two things saved my kid's life one snowy night out on the highway when a semi passed her and she lost control. She said she screamed, took her hands off the wheel to cover her face, and the car sraightened itself out. She didn't know how. I do.

 

[2ndhalf]

Good video Moss.

Another that will make you a believer
How Effective is Stability Control - YouTube

Last week 71 North of Columbus was an absolute mess 3 - 4 inches of slick snow. I waited until I had no cars around me and punched the gas just to see what would happen. My car did not get very squirly at all and it was slick.

 

[MossRoad]

Good video Moss.

Another that will make you a believer
How Effective is Stability Control - YouTube

Last week 71 North of Columbus was an absolute mess 3 - 4 inches of slick snow. I waited until I had no cars around me and punched the gas just to see what would happen. My car did not get very squirly at all and it was slick.

We had a 2000 Impala with traction control. With good tires, it might as well have been a snowmobile. I loved driving that car in the snow. Stomp on the gas and it would take right off, with just a bit of braking if it sensed wheel spin. Our 2013 Impala's traction control is, to me, too aggressive. If I stomp on the gas, it won't let the car go forward much, at all, as it applies the brakes to keep the wheels from spinning. But the 2013 has the stability control, while the 2000 did not. I have not yet (or at least not known) use the stability control, but I'm sure my kid did.

Now my 1993 Suburban K1500 is another beast all together. It's 4wd with a locking differential in the rear. I have absolutely no issues getting moving forward in snow. None. It handles really well if you use engine braking, downshifting, and gas pedal to get around curves and such. Stopping..... not so good. The ABS system leaves much to be desired. I think it fights with the drive train. I can go out and try and stop, and hear and feel the ABS going off, and keep on sliding. But I can go around the block, and approach the same stop, but throw it into neutral, and it'll stop just fine. It almost seems as if the front wheels start skidding, the rear wheels keep driving it along, regardless of if its in 2 or 4wd. I'm tempted to pull the ABS fuse(s) and see if I can disable the ABS to test it out.

 

[JK22]

I'd take that bet.
I think ABS are great on dry pavement, allowing people to steer and brake.
Yes, I know how they work.
I've experienced it pulsating the brakes. And I've experienced that the stopping power of the ABS releasing the brakes was lesser than if my studs where just locked and digging in.
You can feel it plain as day when on ice you go from braking, deceleration, to when the pedal starts pulsating and there's no more feeling of deceleration, and you're not stopping.

Wikipedia sources (notated) says: "ABS generally offers improved vehicle control and decreases stopping distances on dry and slippery surfaces; however, on loose gravel or snow-covered surfaces, ABS can significantly increase braking distance, although still improving vehicle steering control."
Anti-lock braking system - Wikipedia

I agree. The key is to avoid getting to that point at all. You have made a lot of mistakes by the time you slam the brakes to the point that ABS is kicking in. Following too closely, going too fast, not downshifting long before you needed to engage the brakes to come to a full stop. In the snow, ABS is a safeguard for people who don’t know how to drive. It might slow the vehicle down a little bit and reduce injuries by the time the out of control vehicle slams into something.

 

[2ndhalf]

I agree. The key is to avoid getting to that point at all. You have made a lot of mistakes by the time you slam the brakes to the point that ABS is kicking in. Following too closely, going too fast, not downshifting long before you needed to engage the brakes to come to a full stop. In the snow, ABS is a safeguard for people who don’t know how to drive. It might slow the vehicle down a little bit and reduce injuries by the time the out of control vehicle slams into something.

Ha right. You don't have to slam the brakes for the ABS to kick in on a newer car. I drive as fast as I can get away with and if that means I can't drive; I guess I can't. I prefer not to spend any more time on the road than I have to. I spend 10 hours a week minimum in my car commuting.

So I love my ABS and ESC. If it kicking in means I can't drive I don't really care.

So your the guy clogging the fast lane!

 

[LD1]

Wikipedia sources (notated) says: "ABS generally offers improved vehicle control and decreases stopping distances on dry and slippery surfaces; however, on loose gravel or snow-covered surfaces, ABS can significantly increase braking distance, although still improving vehicle steering control."
Anti-lock braking system - Wikipedia

Remember we are talking modern ABS.....not 1990's tech.

And that quote from wiki.....not the whole story.

The though behind stopping faster on snow and loose gravel WITHOUT ABS is simply because the loose stone or snow will pile up in front of the tires when a tire skids (further aiding in stopping) where ABS doesnt allow that to happen. But I certainly wouldnt say that ABS "significantly" increases the stopping distance. A little increase...in SOME conditions....maybe. But at a loss of directional control.

In the snow, ABS is a safeguard for people who don’t know how to drive.

I disagree.

Slippery snowy roads and someone pulls out in front of you causing you to brake hard enough for ABS
Or a dog, deer, kid, whatever darts out in front of you?
Or someone coming at you and cannot stay in their lane?
Or you round a blind curve and and realize your lane is blocked because of an accident?

None of these are "people who dont know how to drive" Emergency braking is a part of driving. Having to do it doesnt me one doesnt know how to drive. And in a panic situation....you bet your @$$ I want ABS,

So all you you big tough guys.....go ahead....keep pounding your chest because you think you are better than ABS and ABS is for the weenies. I'll stay in reality. I have nothing to prove about how good of a driver I am that I dont need ABS.

 

[square1]

I always heard that the difference was when you get a 4x4 stuck...you're really stuck...!

How do you know who's 4 WD is best? It's the one that gets stuck farthest from home.

All the ABS talk brings up another point. Your main focus in a situation should be on where you want to go (an opening you can fit through, the shoulder of the road, etc..). Your reflexive tendencies will try to take you where your eyes are pointed. Staring at the vehicle you're trying not to slide into pretty much assures you will hit it.