Yard sales and cell phones. (rant)

[Farmwithjunk]

I'm not sure anyone is really disagreeing with you. I don't think anyone said the fire truck driver did the "right" thing, or that we would have done the same thing, but that doesn't keep us from enjoying the results.

In fact, there was a time when I was in charge of the safety section in the police department, and later when I was a member of our volunteer fire department, I did the driving and use of the lights, siren, etc. instruction. And yes, I "assume" (is it safe to do that?) that all operators of emergency equipment are taught that if you have an accident enroute to an emergency, you not only will not be of any assistance to those who needed you, but you add to the emergency.

So, yep, I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't recommend it to others, but I enjoyed the results.

At least we're beginning to agree upon what it is we DISAGREE on. I can't honestly say that the man didn't deserve what happened to him. That may well be. But to maintain the integrety of a fire dept, police dept, or emt dept, they have to hold themselves to a higher standard. It's virtually impossible to expect the general public to follow laws that the saftey and law enforcement people themselves find it hard to follow.

In the very first post in this thread, I joked about delaying going back after a second tractor to be hauled home until I calmed down "lest I hand out some old fashioned justice". Had I known just where this thread would take us, I might not have joked about it. That desire to "get even" is what causes most road rage. Even at times, in a fire truck.

 

[patrick_g]

As if the pot needed additional stirring...

There are intrinsic or codified values and situational values. A value judgment based on least harm for greatest benefit whether or not it is in compliance with all regulations is not something to be undertaken lightly nor to be punished for heavily.

My favorite insulated super hero mug (I have a set) is Batman punching out a bad guy who is saying you can't do this, it ain't legal. Batman punches his lights out saying, "I'm not so much interested in the law, as justice!"

Still, violating the law in a tit for tat rode rage incident is incredibly stupid. "He started it" is a poor reason for doing stupid, dangerous, or illegal things to someone to "get even" or teach them a lesson. Adults are supposed to exercise self control. If you find you are a "hot reactor" who has to "pay back" every highway slight or wrong, real or imagined, then you are NOT OK and need to enroll in anger management classes or similar.

We can't know with certainty what was in the mind of the FD driver who pushed an impediment to success out of the way to get to the scene of an accident or the extant conditions. If the danger to life of the impediment was very slight and the need to be on-scene was great (literally a matter of life and death) then I am glad the driver did what he did. If it made little or no difference to their arrival time and the traffic situation would have likely cleared in seconds than I have to wonder if the driver was overzealous and maybe was exhibiting some road rage and vigilantism.

The good ole COLREGS (Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea) tell you how to overtake another vessel and what to do when overtaken, what signals are required to be made by each vessel in various passing situations and close encounters. There is also the "General Prudential Rule" which states that you are required to do what a prudent seaman would do to prevent collision. This takes care of all the situations where the clearly stated and rigorously defined rules of the road start to get fuzzy. It literally tells you to do whatever you have to do to avoid a collision irrespective of the defined and codified rules like vessel on the right has right of way.

To a degree, I think the FD driver may have applied a version of the general prudential rule to maximize the good to be done and minimize the down side. I would think society to be ill served if the FD driver were so constrained by rules, laws, procedures, and liability considerations that he had to essentially say, Oh well, too bad the crash victims will be left at the roadside in their crumbled vehicles to suffer and die but I can't even begin to consider bending any law, rule, instruction in order to expedite rescuing them. I realize a couple things:

1. the injured folks at the accident scene were probably there because of MUTUAL ROAD RAGE and or stupidity

2. I made lots of assumptions of facts not in evidence to tilt my description but only as an example of one possible reality that may have been.

Regarding the speed or lack therof exhibited when folks are departing a parking space in a parking lot:

A psychology class went to a large shopping center armed with clipboards and stop watches. They timed the interval between a person returning to their car (touching the doorhandle) and starting to drive forward to leave after backing out of the space. They noted whether or not there was a car obviously waiting to take the space being vacated. I don't recall the stats in detail but in most cases the leaving car took significantly longer to leave when someone was waiting than with no one waiting (NOT due to waiting car being in the way studying maps or otherwise.)

The explanation went something like this: Even when no conscious thought was given to making someone wait for you to clear the space there is a territorial imperative at work subconsciously. This little chunk of terra firma is YOURS and you feel threatened by the would be interloper so you are slow to relinquish YOUR territory to the stranger. You are enforcing your right of possession. This is unconscious in many people. In the others there is conscious recognition (or belief) that someone is trying to interfere with you and or your domain and you will "show them." So you show discourtesy by dragging your feet to reflect the affront back at the stranger. Yet more proof that we are only a couple percent different from chimps.

Pat

 

[Bird]

That's an interesting theory on the speed of vacating a parking space. Perhaps right; perhaps not. As I said before, I try to get out of the way as quickly as possible, but I also am usually slower getting out and gone if someone is sitting there waiting for me than I am if there's no other vehicle there, and for an entirely different reason. When someone is parked in the driving lane behind me, I'm first going to look around to try to determine whether said person is waiting for my parking space or whether some other vehicle is about to leave and the parked vehicle is waiting on that other space, or maybe the vehicle parked in the driving lane is waiting for a passenger to get in or out, or maybe the parked vehicle is stopped there simply because someone else is stopped in the driving lane ahead of them, etc. And then I'm going to back out rather slowly because I want to be sure that the parked vehicle isn't going to start forward as I'm backing out. The reason for that is that I assume everyone knows that if you have a collision and you were moving backwards at the time, you can almost rest assured that you will be the person "at fault".

Of course, whether there's another vehicle waiting for the parking space or not, I do want to take enough time to look all around. I've actually seen that hilarious (if you're not involved) situation in which two vehicles on opposite sides of the driving lane backed out at the same time and met in the middle. Fortunately, I've not been a participant in such a scenario, but I've come close.

 

[Defective]

Excellent post Pat.

A little more detail from a fuzzy brain after all these years:

The driver in question WAS reprimanded.

The need to be on-scene quickly was indeed great. The accident victims were indeed urgently in need of aid. (One of the vans was upside down on the shoulder ahead.)

The accident was not caused by road rage, just stupidity. One of the vehicles involved had swerved to avoid a racoon.

The rescue truck at time of impact was travelling at approximately 10 mph with siren & lights operating.

The idiot had nowhere to go once he was on the shoulder.

In the end, once we extracted the victims, 2 were airlifted to hospital.

As a side note, the driver was required to pay to have the front bumper of the rescue truck re-chromed.

 

[patrick_g]

If I were his supervisor I would have publicly reminded him of the need to be alert and obey all laws and applicable rules. Privately I would have informed him that I appreciated his quick thinking but to try to not establish a recognizable pattern of taking the law into his own hands, unless it was really called for.

Then I would have bucked it up the chain requesting written guidance and talking points to be included in member training. I would point out that there is a possibility of a wrongful death suit or similar from the accident victim side of the equation and how the potential for litigation there was more of a threat than from a low violator interfering with emergency services.

Then I would have the union, if any, or other appropriate representative organization or emergency services sensitive political group take the matter forward to attempt to get a modification to the state laws to hold the emergency services personnel harmless when they act in good faith within the (to be published) guidelines. Sort of a good Samaritan thing.

But then I have a deep set resentment of laws that are stupid or inflexible in the face of logic and reason and believe it is our duty as citizens to challenge then when needed and seek improvements. I'm sure that the scenario discussed was not the first or last occurence of anything similar.

Pat

 

[Egon]

Pat thinks of right away in terms of a 40 foot sailboat and a supertanker and who shall give way.

 

[Defective]

Pat,

You been talking to our chief or something?

Jim's spare butthole got installed very publicly, immediately before we all went to the bar.

No higher chain of command to hand it to tho...

No union either.

As far as laws & such, as I pointed out earlier, this happened back in the days when firefighters & such were treated better.

I agree with you on stupid laws (or at least stupid enforcement...) I strongly believe stupid should hurt. I've long advocated the idea that police should be required to administer corrective action to stupid people on the spot.

Scenario: reckless driver is pulled over and argues with the officer...

Idiot: "I didn't do anything wrong pig!"

Officer: "You were doing 140 in a school zone."

Idiot: "No way man!"

officer: "I measured your speed with radar."

Idiot: "Bull!"

Sound effect: SMACK!!!, Thump...

Idiot: "What was that for?"

Sound effect: Thump

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Pat,

You been talking to our chief or something?

Jim's spare butthole got installed very publicly, immediately before we all went to the bar.

No higher chain of command to hand it to tho...

No union either.

As far as laws & such, as I pointed out earlier, this happened back in the days when firefighters & such were treated better.

I agree with you on stupid laws (or at least stupid enforcement...) I strongly believe stupid should hurt. I've long advocated the idea that police should be required to administer corrective action to stupid people on the spot.

Scenario: reckless driver is pulled over and argues with the officer...

Idiot: "I didn't do anything wrong pig!"

Officer: "You were doing 140 in a school zone."

Idiot: "No way man!"

officer: "I measured your speed with radar."

Idiot: "Bull!"

Sound effect: SMACK!!!, Thump...

Idiot: "What was that for?"

Sound effect: Thump

Fortunatly, maturity, common sense and inteligence won out over linch mob mentality. Public saftey personel have no reason to be the biggest threat to public saftey. We have no need for Gestapo/KGB police tactics in this (or any) country.

 

[WhyNot]

I know the topic of traffic circles has already been discussed but being from the state of traffic circles (NJ), I would like to see more. I have to go through one everyday to get to work and it has 2 highways and 2 side roads coming into it and there is never a backup unless someone decides that the yield sign does not apply to them. There was an article in the paper some time back explaining how the state was going to turn the circle into a round-about. When I seen this I thought it was just another way to spend some tax money but, further down they explained that a round-about is a much tighter circle and the road is a lot narrower like in Europe and this would be safer because all the drivers would have to slow down while entering the round-about instead of being able to blow through it at 50 mph like you can now.

 

[patrick_g]

First this note to Egon then an adult response.

Anyone with a sailboat with less than 4 masts should never even consider right of way with a large commercial vessel and just get out of the way.

I still have a vivid memory of me being called from San Diego to Pine Street in Long Beach to discuss my sailboat navigation with a Coast Guard officer. Seems I got becalmed in the middle of the Channel in San Diego harbor and a CVN got close and shouted at me on the bull horn and the crew took pictures of me. The artwork on the jib which I thought was Playboy Bunny ears symbol sure looked like a hand giving a Peace Sign in the pictures (noit my boat.) There is more to this story which prevents me from looking so bad but it is way off topic.

My personal day dream is for civilians to pass a stringent test and be issued weapons with video cameras and wireless networking. You video a situation and get either a red light or green light (and digital enabling of the weapon) regarding engaging the target and you get a bounty if successful. The weapon could be non-leathal (or not.)

Pat