Yes, another electrical question. Oh, and propane too.

[mred2]

My transformer is on the ground 150 or so from the house. No noise at all. Meter is on the house.

 

[kenmbz]

For the tank, be careful of easements from whoever owns the road. Think it's 25 feet or so from centerline of road where I am, might be off a bit though, don;t have drawings with me.

 

[Diggin It]

Y'all priced copper tubing coils lately? 1/2" x 100' is showing about $1.50' or more for me at the big box stores. Maybe I can find but less, but I doubt it.

I'm looking at some yellow plastic tubing made for gas direct burial too. The pipe is cheap enough but they make their money on the fittings and risers I guess. The tube can go inside conduit too for extra protection, but I don't think copper can.

 

[crazyal]

Around here everything up to the meter is theirs. You can dig the trenches and lay the conduit but they pull the wire. As for voltage drop, that shouldn't be a problem as long as the correct gauge wire is used. I think the code allows up to 3% voltage drop on a service entrance. I know when I built my house I could have used 4/0 aluminum wire but opted for 350mcm. The 4/0 was slightly over 3% loss (but who ever actually draws 200 amps on 200 amp service?) switching to 350 MCM dropped it down to about 2%. Plenty of voltage drop calculators on line. The best thing about voltage drop and buried cable is the temperature is very stable. Temperature of the wire matters just like length of the run.

 

[grsthegreat]

Y'all priced copper tubing coils lately? 1/2" x 100' is showing about $1.50' or more for me at the big box stores. Maybe I can find but less, but I doubt it.

I'm looking at some yellow plastic tubing made for gas direct burial too. The pipe is cheap enough but they make their money on the fittings and risers I guess. The tube can go inside conduit too for extra protection, but I don't think copper can.

copper anything is nuts. Mind if i ask, whats the copper tubing for. The plastic gas pipe that home depot sells is crap compared to the stuff my heating contractor uses. The plastic pipe that propane company uses up here in Idaho is supplied by the propane company. We only supply trench, they supply everything else up to house regulator.

 

[Diggin It]

Mind if i ask, whats the copper tubing for.

Propane if I decide to move the tank.

The plastic gas pipe that home depot sells is crap compared to the stuff my heating contractor uses.

This stuff? https://www.homedepot.com/p/HOME-FL...2-1-2-in-Meter-Risers-18-429440-005/311074240

 

[grsthegreat]

Propane if I decide to move the tank.



This stuff? https://www.homedepot.com/p/HOME-FL...2-1-2-in-Meter-Risers-18-429440-005/311074240

yes, that stuff. Has compression ends. The real stuff is press on, but you get 1 chance to get it right. Ive compared quality and home depots sucks. I dont cheap out on gas stuff. I have seen copper pipe used on propane many years ago, but i thought that was a thing of the past.

 

[Diggin It]

Yeah, I wondered about the special compression ends. What does the contractor use? Does it need special tools? Copper tubing is too high right now from what I see unless I can find another source. I have copper tubing in use now and that's what the LP company mentioned this morning when I called them. Hmmm, wonder if they can sell it?

 

[Diggin It]

Mueller Streamline 1/2-in x 60-ft Copper L Coil $160.00

That's freakin' insane. $2.66' insane.

And I need 90-100' with no breaks/splices/couplings.

 

[grsthegreat]

The fittings they use slip on, and lock inplace. You absolutely cannot remove them after slipped together. 1 man can install the 1/2” to 3/4” fittings, but on the larger 1-1/4” ones we use for generators they use 2 man crew. Fittings are not cheap. They have special reaming tools and prep tools prior to fitting install. The only copper lines ive seen up here are on systems installed up thru the 1970’s and on fuel oil jobs. The poly is so much cheaper to install. The stuff propane and heating contractors use dont even need shading with sand before backfilling. Very thick pipe.

 

[Diggin It]

My LP company isn't going to be much help. Just called them back and they want $3.50/ft for copper and $2.80/ft for plastic, plus fittings.

 

[grsthegreat]

My propane company didnt even charge me for pipe as long as i dug a 24” deep trench 300 feet to my shop. I only had to pay for regulator. They figured id use enough gas over the years heating my shop.

 

[Gomer pyle]

When we built here in the Rocky Mountains 15 years ago there was a choice of either above ground or underground for about a 600 foot run. 200 amp service. We chose to put in two poles to cut the distance in half - these were less expensive than I had expected. From the last pole the lines dropped down to a transformer on the ground where they went underground the last 300 feet. The meter was on the transformer. Trenching was easy, the heavy underground wire was in large diameter heavy wall PVC tube. Cost was about $30K for all versus somewhere less than half that if we had stayed above ground the whole way. The utility did it all the work including inspections. We were happy not to have to look at wires coming across our land.

Seven years ago a flood wiped out the underground system. Floodwater swept the transformer and one of the poles away, pulling the whole underground system out of the ground. What a mess. We replaced the underground feed with a standard above ground feed and drop to the house. Cost of putting in new electrical was right at $5K.


WE WOULD NEVER GO UNDERGROUND AGAIN FOR TWO REASONS:

1. The transformer noise. With the underground system, the transformer on the ground made a constant hum. The noise wasn't loud enough that a person could hear it in town, but here in the quiet piney mountains, but we could alwyas hear it. It made a constant droning hum even though 300 feet away on a hillside. The utility said all the transformers make some noise, but in most locations there is enough background noise from wind, or traffic, or neighbors to drown out the transformer noise. Not so for us.
Believe me, if you value quiet you do NOT want that transformer close to your house.

2. The increased monthly cost. We were surprised at how high our undergound utility bills were. Not outrageous, and the same cost per kW/hr..... but still about 50% higher than we had expected. Comparing with neighbors, we seemed to be paying up to double what others were paying for similar houses. Being careful about electrical use didn't make a noticible difference. After the flood we elected to put the replacement lines overhead, not underground. Now the meter is at the house instead of at the transformer. Our monthly bill immediately dropped by 50%.

Some conclusions: In-ground electrical is expensive initially and ongoing. It can be noisy. It is more vulnerable to damage and difficult to repair. Repairs are on your dime. So is clean up. Your monthly costs may go up, but you won't know and cannot fight it because there is no way to compare.

rScotty

UG and OH are the same cost, per KWH, to the customer/member. The difference in your scenario is how it was metered. If it was metered at the trans, it was CT metered and normally that would be at a commercial rate.

 

[grsthegreat]

UG and OH are the same cost to the customer/member. The difference in your scenario is how it was metered. If it was metered at the trans, it was CT metered and normally that would be at a commercial rate.

Not necessarily. Here in idaho overhead is alot cheaper than underground. I have quite a few residential customers metered with ct’s and they still have residential rates. It depends upon utility.

 

[Gomer pyle]

Not necessarily. Here in idaho overhead is alot cheaper than underground. I have quite a few residential customers metered with ct’s and they still have residential rates. It depends upon utility.

For initial install or per KWH? I've never seen KWH change depending on service type.
I did mistype and forgot to put, per KWH, in my post

 

[grsthegreat]

For initial install or per KWH? I've never seen KWH change depending on service type.
I did mistype and forgot to put, per KWH, in my post

Oh. I misunderstood your meaning of the same. Yes, cost per kwh is same.

 

[Gomer pyle]

Oh. I misunderstood your meaning of the same. Yes, cost per kwh is same.

I thought it, just didn't type it. Yes, install cost are a lot higher for UG and it changes from utility to utility about how much they will charge for each.
I like the transformer as close as possible for voltage drop issues. Just because you did all the homework and paid extra for wire or equipment(up size, copper) does NOT mean the utility will do the same. They are going to undersize with the thought that no one will pull their full load at any given time. My house met code but I was having dimming/flickering issues, I had utility upgrade trans and wire and all my issues went away. My in-laws didn't listen to my suggestion and did as the OP suggest, secondary only from pole. The difference is, their service is 315+/-. They have not had any issues but they have a smaller house and they don't do any extra things(i.e. weld, extra lighting, etc...).

 

[TMGT]

In my area you can have 2 meters on the same lot before having to pay to have the line run.

I just added a 400a 3phase service to my shop, about 250' UG, transformer placed approx 20' from the shop.

I chose to run the conduit for the UG line myself so the only cost I incurred was the conduit (6in so not cheap) and a precast pad for the transformer. The utility company did everything else.
If I had chosen to do the OH line my cost would have been nothing, however I didn't want OH lines run through the woods across my driveway.

This was a new service, if I needed to upgrade an existing service it would have cost me.

 

[rScotty]

That's freakin' insane. $2.66' insane.

And I need 90-100' with no breaks/splices/couplings.

I don't think it's insane, just higher priced than it used to be. So what? If it was bad quality that would be different, but for my last project I inspected the coils before buying and at least it looks to be just like the old stuff - being soft copper easily bent. The color seems right for pure copper.

Anyway, I just put in 100 feet of of copper propane line - actually several lines radiating from a hub and each one continuous to its own low pressure regulator. I think I paid around 2.10/ft. for the copper tubing. The only problem was a couple of the made-in-China brass compression fittings which split when tightened.
I was able to find some old USA made ones to replace them.

And I sleep good because the pure copper line is durable. It will last far longer than I'll remember the price.

rScotty

 

[3Ts]

And I sleep good because the pure copper line is durable. It will last far longer than I'll remember the price.

Copper is durable and can be done by the homeowner, but it also depends on the soil and what it comes in contact with. Iron soils and concrete will corrode the copper. The poly pipe is non-corrodable but you need the special fittings and installation equipment which means a professional installation requirement.