Yet another slightly offbeat assignment...

Defective · Jul 20, 2007

Actually, this design DOES use 2 of the sheets full size & uncut. They are spaced about as wide as the hole you're filling.

My reasoning for the design I basically pulled from my butt as I typed...

The overall shape at the top matches up fairly well with the shape of a FEL bucket.

The depth (full sheet to full sheet) matches the hole you're filling.

The smaller ply pieces are angled from the width of the hole (at bottom) to 8' apart (at top). This creates the funnel.

You could also play around with the shape of the 2 smaller pieces of ply & maybe widen the opening at the top. You'd have to do something to stabilize it when it's sitting over the hole then. hhhmmm... Probably have to stabilize it anywho...

The overall shape of the whole thing lends itself well to transport. Just put the FEL over top & throw a rope on each end. It'll also sit on your trailer fairly well for transport to the job site.

As far as nailing vs. screwing...

Most of the stress this thing will take is going to be trying to push the ply away from the 2x2 framing on the sloped sides. In my experience, nails will pull out. Drywall screws have almost no shear strength but lots of pull resistance. Plus...they're cheap enough to put one every couple of inches if you like.

One added benefit of screws over nails is that you can pull it apart for design adjustments on site. Just make sure your drill batteries are charged.

I'm still trying to think up an effective yet simple method to brace this thing so it doesn't flop over onto a flat side. So far picturing another sheet of ply cut corner-to-corner and attached to the ends with 4 4' lengths of 2x2. hhhmmm... I think this would work...

Defective · Jul 20, 2007

Darnit!

Now I have this funnel all worked out in my head, I need an excuse to make one. I'll bet it only takes an hour...

Dougster · Jul 20, 2007

TheKid said:
I don't know if this would work in your situation, but I have seen concrete mixers deliver sand. would a mixer with a 20 ft chute reach the manholes?

Thought you were talking about one of these for a mnute there... a motorized wheelbarrow often used for delivering concrete:

Never seen an actual concrete mixer truck just delivering sand... but with a long enough, steep enough chute; yes, I suppose it would work.

Dougster

Dougster · Jul 20, 2007

Defective said:
Actually, this design DOES use 2 of the sheets full size & uncut. They are spaced about as wide as the hole you're filling.
My reasoning for the design I basically pulled from my butt as I typed...
The overall shape at the top matches up fairly well with the shape of a FEL bucket.
The depth (full sheet to full sheet) matches the hole you're filling.
The smaller ply pieces are angled from the width of the hole (at bottom) to 8' apart (at top). This creates the funnel.
You could also play around with the shape of the 2 smaller pieces of ply & maybe widen the opening at the top. You'd have to do something to stabilize it when it's sitting over the hole then. hhhmmm... Probably have to stabilize it anywho...
The overall shape of the whole thing lends itself well to transport. Just put the FEL over top & throw a rope on each end. It'll also sit on your trailer fairly well for transport to the job site.
As far as nailing vs. screwing...
Most of the stress this thing will take is going to be trying to push the ply away from the 2x2 framing on the sloped sides. In my experience, nails will pull out. Drywall screws have almost no shear strength but lots of pull resistance. Plus...they're cheap enough to put one every couple of inches if you like.
One added benefit of screws over nails is that you can pull it apart for design adjustments on site. Just make sure your drill batteries are charged.
I'm still trying to think up an effective yet simple method to brace this thing so it doesn't flop over onto a flat side. So far picturing another sheet of ply cut corner-to-corner and attached to the ends with 4 4' lengths of 2x2. hhhmmm... I think this would work...

Defective said:
Darnit! Now I have this funnel all worked out in my head, I need an excuse to make one. I'll bet it only takes an hour...

There is never an AutoCad station around when you need to use one!

Just remember two of the key rules of successful bin design: Keep the sides as steep as possible... and NEVER taper where you don't have to. In this regard, I don't believe I'd want to taper in the (tractor) axial direction... just the lateral direction to accommodate the 78" wide bucket. Remember that I can feed the funnel VERY slowly... so there is no real need for extra depth (i.e., width between the sheets).

Dougster

schmism · Jul 20, 2007

dont you have these things in your area?

its a live bottom truck with like 30' of conveyor on the back to deposit material "on location" so there is no need to move it again.

they use them for delivering gravel and stuff inside basements and such.

If it was me id rig up a metal 3 sided funnel that was on my bucket. it would flip up out of the way when i scoop in my dump trailer, but then i could flip it down (hindgeed on the top of the bucket) to dump sand in the hole.

Dougster · Jul 20, 2007

schmism said:
dont you have these things in your area?

its a live bottom truck with like 30' of conveyor on the back to deposit material "on location" so there is no need to move it again. they use them for delivering gravel and stuff inside basements and such.

Oh Lordy!!!

Never seen one like that around here... but it doesn't mean they aren't out there somewhere!!!

Mama Mia!!!

We really need to get back down to earth here with the most practical & economical way to get sand out of a remote dump trailer... transported a short distance (~300 feet)... and deposited into a series of manholes... all while spilling as little as possible. All other solutions including cement trucks and 12-axle mega-monster-trucks are not going to happen due to economics, the relatively tight working space around these manholes and abutter issues (property access, fence removals and curbing/median strip to jump) which the client simply does not wish to broach. As I said before, this is very likely why he is calling little old me!!!

The plywood funnel clearly fits the bill best... although I'd sure like to use that stump bucket if there were an easy way to channel the sand coming out of the dump trailer to a one or two foot wide stream without $600 worth of steel modifications.

And please no more suggestions of manual shoveling. I abhor bringing it up again... it embarrasses me... but I am physically handicapped since birth (some would say mentally handicapped too) and I'm simply not going to shovel 30,000 lbs of sand with my one good arm.

Dougster

philbuilt · Jul 20, 2007

Dougster,
Call the concrete company and order just the sand. (10yds one load)It will come out of the truck dry. Buy the small bucket and have the driver pour it in the bucket. I have had crushed stone delivered this way to put drainage in a basement. The sand will cost a little more but time will make that up.
Phil

Toiyabe · Jul 20, 2007

Yeah, but then the mixer truck is going to have to sit there all day while Dougster shuttles pissant little loads around. If he's halfway smart he'll make Dougster pay for that.

Seems like with the funnel the client will be happy and Dougster will make a reasonable profit. What more could you want?

LarryD · Jul 20, 2007

So how much money you want to spend on this job?

Berlon: Sand Shooter

Dougster · Jul 20, 2007

philbuilt said:
Dougster, Call the concrete company and order just the sand. (10yds one load) It will come out of the truck dry. Buy the small bucket and have the driver pour it in the bucket. I have had crushed stone delivered this way to put drainage in a basement. The sand will cost a little more but time will make that up.
Phil

I'll check it out Phil. Nothing to lose.

The guy at the equipment rental place had nothing I could use and essentially told me he thought I should do the same thing... but if you knew how low I bid this job, you'd really feel sorry for me.

Dougster

Dougster · Jul 20, 2007

Toiyabe said:
Yeah, but then the mixer truck is going to have to sit there all day while Dougster shuttles pissant little loads around. If he's halfway smart he'll make Dougster pay for that. Seems like with the funnel the client will be happy and Dougster will make a reasonable profit. What more could you want?

That's the problem with the stump bucket. We are taking a LOT of trips here to move 10 yards of sand. No problem if it's just me and my dump trailer. Not so sure about a cement truck with operator... but I'll ask the question when I go there.

Until then, Plan A is still the amazing plywood sand funnel.

Dougster

Dougster · Jul 20, 2007

LarryD said:
So how much money you want to spend on this job?
Berlon: Sand Shooter

Let's just put it this way Larry: Most of you guys wouldn't cross the dang street for what I bid this job...

...and still the client is squawking.

Wouldn't be the first time if the client was just using me to help him negotiate the change order price for his main contractor.

Dougster

Dougster · Jul 20, 2007

WhyNot said:
Dougster, I know you don't want to shovel that sand but, when you say manhole, I think about the ones I have had the pleasure to spend a few hours in, there is no way you are going to be able to just dump the sand in and have the hole fill up. Some one is going to have to jump in and spread the sand to the far corners and even then you still won't get the corners filled to the top unless you dump a little sand at a time in the hole and pack it into the corners. And what about water. Are the holes dry? If there is a lot of water in there it needs to be pumped. Also, if you need to go in the hole you really need to be aware of the air quality. It does not take long for the gases that brew in these holes to make you sick or even kill you. FYI when we enter a manhole there is always a blower running and a gas detector on and also a guard up to make the phone call if the guys in the hole become sick. Sorry to be so negative but, these are thing's you need to think of. But then again if all they are 24" holes straight down ignore every thing I just typed.

We've been calling it sand, but I believe the correct term for what they want is "flowable fill." There should be no need to enter the manholes. The manholes have all been pumped, cleaned and otherwise prep'd for filling with appropriate inspections and documention in hand. They need only be filled.

Dougster

Toiyabe · Jul 20, 2007

The flowable fill I'm used to is essentially grout, and includes portland cement and flyash. Are you sure that's what you'll be useing? If so, that changes things.

Flowable fill is the right thing to use if you want to fill the void completely. Not as easy to deal with as sand, though.

Grrrr · Jul 20, 2007

Dougster, have you thought about making a kind of spout that you could put on the front of your bucket. If necessary, you could make it removable so as you could fill it up with sand from your truck and then put the spout back on so you could guide it down the hole. Just kinda seems simpler than the whole funnel idea and having to move that funnel each time.

Heck, you could even put a hinge on it so you could flip it up for filling the bucket.

Sorry for the rubbish drawing

philbuilt · Jul 20, 2007

Dougster,
My bucket is approximately 1/3yd give or take that is only 30 trips to the truck. I load and dump my 3yd dump trailer 4 times in an hour = 12 yds.
If you could make that bucket extension like Grrr mention you could do this in little time without the surcharge. Are you going to compact as you go or just fill all and then compact? I would like to also suggest a concrete vibrator and generator.This will facilitate the sand flow. Also over top all the holes and clean up after the truck is gone. I don't know all the details but you are doing the right thing by asking.
Good luck I'm sure you will make it happen
Phil

Dougster · Jul 20, 2007

Toiyabe said:
The flowable fill I'm used to is essentially grout, and includes portland cement and flyash. Are you sure that's what you'll be useing? If so, that changes things. Flowable fill is the right thing to use if you want to fill the void completely. Not as easy to deal with as sand, though.

Ultimately, I'm sure the authorities will dictate exactly what these manholes can be filled with. I'm just the stupid transporter and fill guy.

Dougster

Dougster · Jul 20, 2007

Grrrr said:
Dougster, have you thought about making a kind of spout that you could put on the front of your bucket. If necessary, you could make it removable so as you could fill it up with sand from your truck and then put the spout back on so you could guide it down the hole. Just kinda seems simpler than the whole funnel idea and having to move that funnel each time.
Heck, you could even put a hinge on it so you could flip it up for filling the bucket. Sorry for the rubbish drawing

That's a great conceptual drawing Jake... and certainly one of the early concepts I tossed around... but again, we get back to cost. Can't be spending more to alter and later restore my equipment than what the job pays. Not sure about the UK, but steel and welding costs for a mod like that can get pretty high over here.

The stump bucket is different. I need one anyway... and the cost is amazingly reasonable... and less than what I'll make on this job if I get it.

Dougster