Your time is not free

[o2batsea]

After reading through 8 pages of this thread, all I have to say is: Where are the pictures of the wind powered pond aerator??????

It's still in pieces. As of last weekend I am still waiting on some critical components to arrive such as the tower sections, bearings and a check valve.
Turbine is a Lenz2 which I have finished the wings for, but that's it so far. If you want pics you'll have to wait until the Admiral gives me some shore leave. It's over on the Eastern Shore in the barn.

 

[grnspot110]

I don't get paid for my time, so it must be free!!!!

 

[o2batsea]

C'mon folks, read the post again. You all need to understand the difference between paying yourself $90 per hour and valuing your labor towards building a project at $90 per hour. I actually think I'm being quite cheap at that rate. I should skew it up a bit for inflation and the shabby economy.
If you all feel like that's outrageous, you probably aren't considering the cost of your tools, materials, labor, vehicles, mortgage/rent on your property, utilities, the taxes you pay on all that, the loss of time from having to take time to work on the project, the cost of your education, and your overall cost of living. I am probably leaving some factors out, but I think I have the major stuff in there.

So far I have not seen any viable arguments that would make me change my mind in any way. If anything you are all reinforcing my point.

 

[LD1]

C'mon folks, read the post again. You all need to understand the difference between paying yourself $90 per hour and valuing your labor towards building a project at $90 per hour. I actually think I'm being quite cheap at that rate. I should skew it up a bit for inflation and the shabby economy.
If you all feel like that's outrageous, you probably aren't considering the cost of your tools, materials, labor, vehicles, mortgage/rent on your property, utilities, the taxes you pay on all that, the loss of time from having to take time to work on the project, the cost of your education, and your overall cost of living. I am probably leaving some factors out, but I think I have the major stuff in there.So far I have not seen any viable arguments that would make me change my mind in any way. If anything you are all reinforcing my point.

These factor in regardless of wether I do the project myself or not. Now if I had to go buy a special tool that I don't have to complete the project, then of course that could count, but I already have the building, tools, I have to pat taxes and utilities, etc regardless.

I am not sure what your capabilities are or what kind of shop you have, but If you could build something(insert item/project here) yourself in half a day, say 5 hours, and do it with a material cost of $400 less than what you could buy a new item for, are you saying you would NOT do it because your labor is worth $450 and that would make it more expensive???? Even though you are still paying taxes/utilities/overhead on your things even if you buy new.

I would be more inclined to agree with your side if you value you time at $20-$30 per hour. Again, because you time is the ONLY thing it is costing you assuming you already have tools, etc.

 

[HiTechTed]

C'mon folks, read the post again. You all need to understand the difference between paying yourself $90 per hour and valuing your labor towards building a project at $90 per hour. I actually think I'm being quite cheap at that rate. I should skew it up a bit for inflation and the shabby economy.
If you all feel like that's outrageous, you probably aren't considering the cost of your tools, materials, labor, vehicles, mortgage/rent on your property, utilities, the taxes you pay on all that, the loss of time from having to take time to work on the project, the cost of your education, and your overall cost of living. I am probably leaving some factors out, but I think I have the major stuff in there.

So far I have not seen any viable arguments that would make me change my mind in any way. If anything you are all reinforcing my point.

Solution: do not buy tools, do not do projects for yourself. Do not buy vehicles. Live in a cardboard box out on the street. Do not get an education. Do not buy eggs. Do not live.

And how does nearly 9 pages of disagreement "reinforce your point?" And since this is your way of thinking, why are you even doing your project in the first place? You have already declared that you are in too deep, as if you now regret even doing it at all. So are you just looking for attention or something? All you are doing is complaining against yourself so what's the point?

I beg to differ with the title of this thread. My time is mine, to do whatever I want to with. If he wants to believe that he's so great that he has to count his own imaginary wages against himself, so be it. He's probably unbearable to be around at dinner time...probably sits there and counts each grain of salt he uses and weighs chicken bones just to see how much of the meat he's actually paying for...

 

[smstonypoint]

If you all feel like that's outrageous, you probably aren't considering the cost of your tools, materials, labor, vehicles, mortgage/rent on your property, utilities, the taxes you pay on all that, the loss of time from having to take time to work on the project, the cost of your education, and your overall cost of living. I am probably leaving some factors out, but I think I have the major stuff in there.

Uh oh!! I try to look for teachable moments when it comes to economics. Here we are mixing costs (sunk versus prospective, fixed versus variable) and ignoring how those different costs should affect decisions.

Given my apparent lack of success in trying to explain the concept of "opportunity cost," I will take a powder on this one. There is no need for you to express your thanks.

Steve

 

[Iplayfarmer]

C'mon folks, read the post again. You all need to understand the difference between paying yourself $90 per hour and valuing your labor towards building a project at $90 per hour. I actually think I'm being quite cheap at that rate. I should skew it up a bit for inflation and the shabby economy.
If you all feel like that's outrageous, you probably aren't considering the cost of your tools, materials, labor, vehicles, mortgage/rent on your property, utilities, the taxes you pay on all that, the loss of time from having to take time to work on the project, the cost of your education, and your overall cost of living. I am probably leaving some factors out, but I think I have the major stuff in there.

So far I have not seen any viable arguments that would make me change my mind in any way. If anything you are all reinforcing my point.

Here's another way to put it... We're still charging ourselves $90/hr. (or whatever the number is), but we're getting more value back in fun and enjoyment. It's a wash, so we don't count it against the project.

I think I understand your point... Time is valuable. Don't flippantly put time into a project that would have more value somewhere else. But, keep in mind we are all different. I return to my original question regarding paying someone else to drive your boat around the lake so you don't have to. I'm guessing that even the idea sounds absurd to you because it's something that you enjoy doing. That's why you have a boat. That's why you make time to go boating. I had a boat for a summer and it wasn't for me. I'd pay someone else to drive the boat around.

Consider that some of us enjoy fabricating building and repairing as much or possibly more than you enjoy boating or napping. You don't have to understand it. You just have to accept it. I'm not building a backhoe because I want a backhoe. I'm building a backhoe because I want to BUILD a backhoe. I've already passed up many opportunities to buy a backhoe for less than it will cost me for materials to build one. Many of us do it just for the fun of it.

It's not that we don't value our time. It's that the value we get out of the experience is worth more than the time. On that note. I may have charged myself $90 for the 30 hours I spent rebuilding the transmission on my tractor, but the experience and satisfaction was worth twice that. I bought the tractor for $2000, so in the end my tractor paid me an extra $700 worth of value.

I predict that this thread will change the character of TBN a bit. I guess that future build threads that don't put a dollar value on time will make some justifications regarding the value of the experience.

 

[Denwa]

Who IS John Galt???

John Galt is the mysterious protagonist, or more accurately anti-villain, in Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged. For much of the novel he is merely a name without a face, about whom people ask, "Who is John Galt?" without knowing what or whom they're talking about. Eventually John Galt answers them directly, in a manifesto for individualism and capitalism. More to the point, he is an inventor, a philosopher, and a political movement leader, though not a politician in the usual sense, because he functions neither as legislator nor as administrator.

John Galt resembles Henry Galt, the main character in a 1922 novel by a Garet Garett (1878?954), a leading conservative economics writer of the day. It tells the story of a Wall Street financier, Henry Galt, a shadowy figure who stays out of the limelight as much as possible until he unleashes a plan that had been years in the making: he uses his extraordinary entrepreneurial talent to acquire control of a failing railroad.[1]
-----------------------

Guess this is who he is. Or is it that WE are JG?

T-shirts are availble, just Google...

Dennis

 

[Denwa]

C'mon folks, read the post again. You all need to understand the difference between paying yourself $90 per hour and valuing your labor towards building a project at $90 per hour.......

Ones time IS worth considering. I gave up on deer hunting for this reason, though I much enjoyed the activity. Going to the grocery just makes more sense to me if I want meat.

In a more On-Topic vein, If one's a "keeper" and not particularly organized, how about the time costs in looking for something in your accumulation, that you KNOW is there somewhere, that you need at the moment vs. just going out and buying another one. I submit that in many situations, the just go buy it option will be quicker, and at $90 an hour or even $10/hr, your probably money/time ahead.

Dennis

 

[beppington]

I see so many threads where the poster claims they only have a few bucks worth of materials in a project. I always calculate my own "shop hourly rate" into my projects to see whether I am actually saving money by doing some of these things myself. My personal rate is $90/hr.

Most guys on here like doing stuff themselves, & don't need to "pay themselves" to do so ... especially $90 an hour.

I always figure guys that don't like doing stuff themselves are either lazy, not very handy, yuppies, or somebody I'm gonna need to help out during the next hurricane season ... or all of the above.

 

[rjkobbeman]

Uh oh!! I try to look for teachable moments when it comes to economics. Here we are mixing costs (sunk versus prospective, fixed versus variable) and ignoring how those different costs should affect decisions.

Given my apparent lack of success in trying to explain the concept of "opportunity cost," I will take a powder on this one. There is no need for you to express your thanks.

Steve

Opportunity costs may look good on paper, but if it doesn't put money in your bank account it is worthless for this discussion.

If paying someone else to do a project costs $500 materials and $500 labor, you will have to pay the person you hired $1000 to do your project.

If you do it yourself, it costs $500 in materials. You can try to rationalize how much $$ your time is worth, however if all you have in your bank account is $500, you will be able to do this project yourself but not hire someone else to do it for you. So you say your time was worth $1000, so the project "really" cost $1,500? Funny, only $500 was taken out of the bank.

That is what we are talking about here. Reality. Real money.

Now, if you could actually earn $1000 by spending your time somehwere else, that is totally different. That has been explainied ad-nauseam, but I think we all know that already don't we?

 

[GT2]

At the risk of being flamed on this, as an economist (actually an agricultural economist) I have to disagree. "Opportunity cost" is an important concept in economics (one that too often managed to elude my former students) and need not be restricted to monetary terms. Accountants don't consider opportunity costs, economists do.

The time you devote to an activity (say, building a pond aerator) is time that you could have spent on another activity (e.g., working for pay, time with your family, fishing, whatever). The opportunity cost of that time is the benefit that you forgo in the next-best use of that time.

Steve

Sorry I'm not not an economist, but is that not the same as what I said?

 

[SPYDERLK]

What is the value of satisfaction achieved when you do a custom job to your specs? What is the value of capability and convenience these attributes continually contribute to all future endeavors?
larry

 

[beppington]

What is the value of satisfaction achieved when you do a custom job to your specs?

$90 an hour.

 

[jonyyuma]

$90 an hour.

I agree, Time can be worth a lot more, or even less. It all depends on how you spend it. Some of it is priceless, after all how much extra time can you buy in your lifetime???. Projects , yes, I love them. Jy.

 

[Bison]

I see things a little different.

I learned to fix and build things at a young age,partly because i liked tinkering and partly cause i could not afford new stuff.
As a result, today i own and use only well used equipment and vehicles bought for 10c on the dollar or less,and i can stay on the farm and do what i want when i want and how i want,cause i can do all repairs myself.

I dont have to have an off farm job i would not like anyway and work my *** off to pay others 2 or 3 times as much as i would be making an hr for fixing or building what i need done.The ends just would not meet.

For example,if i buy a used tractor for $5000 and spend another 2 grand to fix it up,it will do the same thing a brandnew $100.000 tractor would(mebby not as fast or efficient but who cares).The diff is $93.000 + interest i don't have to make some where else.

I got 4 tractors 80 to 105 hp,1 big wheelloader,1 compact loader,1 tracksteer loader + a whole pile of implements and attachments.
All of it together bought for the price of maybe 1 new hundred grand tractor.

Granted,repairs are more frequent but for 90 grand saved on the one tractor alone i can do many yrs of fixing on all the others,and i'm never stuck with a broke down piece of equipment cause i can always grab an other one.

And you're telling me DIY don't pay!!

 

[crazyal]

So how many members have read this thread? How many hours spent? What about all the other threads. I wonder if it's broke the million dollar mark yet?

 

[smstonypoint]

Opportunity costs may look good on paper, but if it doesn't put money in your bank account it is worthless for this discussion.


<snip>


That is what we are talking about here. Reality. Real money.

Let me try this one more time. Opportunity costs can be measured in monetary terms but are more general -- they are the benefits you forgo by choosing an alternative over the next-best mutually-exclusive alternative. As other posters have mentioned, there is more to life than money.

Back to the OP, if the poster can earn $90/hour and he considers that to be his next-best alternative to working on his aerator, his opportunity costs are $90/hour if he chooses to work on the aerator.

Now suppose that the poster considers boating to be his next-best alternative to working on the aerator. His opportunity cost of working on the aerator is the benefit (enjoyment) he forgoes by not boating.

Opportunity costs are unique to each individual. But regardless of that fact, your time is not free. If you have mutually-exclusive beneficial alternative uses for your time, choosing one alternative over the next-best alternative has a cost, the benefits (monetary or otherwise) you miss by not undertaking the next-best alternative.

Steve

 

[jgrreed]

What is the value of satisfaction achieved when you do a custom job to your specs?
larry

VERY HIGH!! That's one of the OP's points!!!

I have to respond to this.....

I always figure guys that don't like doing stuff themselves are either lazy, not very handy, yuppies, or somebody I'm gonna need to help out during the next hurricane season ... or all of the above.

Since PC'ness has been blown completely out the window on this thread, here you go.....

When the "well-off" say things like this about the "working class", they're class-less, gauche, etc, etc..... Here's some news, when the "working class" do the same to the "well-off", it's EXACTLY THE SAME. Your comment above is a gross generalization, and it's very rude.

I've stated where I grew up, how I grew up, how much money we had growing up, and what I do, here on TBN several times. Let me address your points one at a time, but slightly out of order.

"Yuppie" - what would the TBN response be if I started throwing out the terms "hick", "hillbilly", "redneck", "greasemonkey", etc?? Watch your words. I suppose in the 4.5 years since residency have made me a "Yuppie". Oh, wait, I'm actually a "Yrp-pie". Those of you that actually know that "yuppie" is actually "YUP-pie" will understand what I'm saying.

What makes a Yuppie to you, sir?? Is it the house they live in? The car they drive? The clothes? The jewellery? The color of tractor they own? I own some very nice things, the vast majority were purchased at a huge discount. I like nice, high quality things. I don't like when the vent zipper on my ski pants breaks in -30C, so I waited, and searched for some Arcteryx pants that where 60% off. I don't like Ryobi cordless tools, so I bought, on eBay, about 5k worth of 18V Dewalt tools for 1000$. I also own some very inexpensive things (ie from Princess Auto, Harbour Freight) that do what they need to do. A high price tag is not what's important to me, quality is.

I can tell you what makes someone "ignorant". It's a comment like your's above.


"Not very handy" - Maybe they're not. Why is that a problem? Maybe they are, but choose to make different use of their time, whether it be spending time with friends and family, going to church, doing another project, making cold hard cash at work, or perhaps volunteering (ie "donating" their time, therefore time has value) for a worthwhile charity or friend in need. You'd be wise to recognize that most successful people got there by multitasking, being respectful, and constantly learning new skills. Some skills involve programming computers, some rebuilding transmissions, some flying high-risk missions, some making ballsy trades on wall street, some building log homes. They're ALL handy in their own way. Paris Hilton is not on TBN, I don't think.


"Lazy" I'm pretty sure that the trophies in Mom's basement, the transcripts in my file, the Provincial (ie 'state') championship game ball with my, and my friends/teammates signatures on it, my MD, and my Fellowship Certificate from the Royal College are fairly solid proof that I am not "lazy". I haven't heard from any trust-fund kids on TBN, have you?? I'd state that anyone who owns a tractor is likely doing some degree of work on their yard, or business, therefore, NOT LAZY. My tractor is in the shop as I type this, having it's new circuits put on. At the same time I'm taking a course to teach GP's how to manage Trauma patients appropriately. That sure as **** doesn't make me lazy.


"somebody I'm gonna need to help out during the next hurricane season" - people's need for assistance during a state of disaster should not be a source of entertainment or be an ego-boost for you. Helping someone in need is part of being a good human being. Here's some news, YOU MIGHT NEED THEIR HELP. Watch what you say, and remember that what goes around comes around.

I word your sentiment slightly differently. I say "this is how we know who will survive the end-of-days". IMO, it's not whether you change your own oil, knit your own sweater, hand build your own backhoe, or drive a Maserati. It's how you act, and how you use the skill set that you have. If you have nothing to offer, you're screwed. If you have everything to offer, but don't allow the human in you to offer it, you're screwed. There are no members of the Jersey Shore cast on TBN, as far as I know.

Bill Gates' name is somewhere on this thread. He was "working class" at one time too.....

Mr. Quickfall taught me, in grade 5, that @ss-u-me is a bad word, for reasons that are obvious based on the dashes. Maybe you didn't have a Mr. Quickfall. You should find one.

-Jer.

 

[smstonypoint]

I always figure guys that don't like doing stuff themselves are either lazy, not very handy, yuppies, or somebody I'm gonna need to help out during the next hurricane season ... or all of the above.

I don't cut my own hair, perform my own dentistry, administer my own physical exams, etc. I don't think that makes me lazy, unhandy, a yuppie, or someone who who will need your help next hurricane season.

Steve