Gear drive vs hydro

[N80]

Sorry, youre glossing over points made and jumping around to suit your argument. Mine is a more accurate interpretation of the composite of points you have manipulated thruout the thread. Unfortunately, some good information is lost by the necessity to keep it brief, non self contradictory, and accurate to the ultimate point:

larry

Well, let's see how this works. First, you try to summarize my stance in this matter. Then I, the one who you are trying to summarize, say that you have failed to do so accurately AND explain very clearly and precisely how you have failed to do so, you simply counter with the yes-you-did/no-you-didn't argument....for the sake of brevity.

If you are going to contend that I don't know what my own point is then it is incumbent on you to provide the evidence. And posting your inaccurate assessment in bold red letters doe not make it true.

Don't expect me or anyone else accept it just because you say so. If you wish to defend your point, do so by addressing mine. Otherwise, my explanation stands.

 

[jk96]

We'll George it's all your fault.
After our back and forth about R1 vs R4 tires in another thread, my contention that one of the benefits of my R4's was a higher ply rating and that I had never had a flat has come back to haunt me. I walked out this evening to move some burn barrels that were full with my tractor and found one of my front tires flat and off the rim.

I will now let you guys slug it out before my pro hydro stance gets me as well.

In the end it's been entertaining, and the one thing I have learned is that myself, and especially George has way too much time to burn at the moment.

 

[N80]

Yep, like I said a while back, after hyping my legendary prowess with a clutch, mine is bound to fail prematurely. Karma can be a real you-know-what. You tempt her and she'll bite you in the heiney.

 

[Redneck in training]

I have TYM 330 HST. It is my first ractor so I don't have a good reference point. The tractor has both speed governor as well as cruise control so in that sense the PTO speed can be tied to certain constant ground speed.
As to the horse power loss issue. The wheel often start sliping even in FWD with diff locked before I run out of power.
There is a cost nobody mentioned so far: Complete oil change runs about 250 USD every 300 hours.
The operating manual also suggests to warm up the oil in hydro for about 20 to 40 minutes during freezing weather. Don't know if geared tractors needs such long warm up too.
Needless to say the tractor is troublefree so far after 70 hours of hard FEL work.

 

[MossRoad]

I think we split hairs a little too fine here.

Mowing the grass.. as it specifically spells out.. seems like a generic term where you are mowing.. grass.. doesn't seem to indicate location.

Mowing the pasture deffinately has an ag sound to it.

Mowing the lawn has a 'lawnmower' sound to it.

Mowing the grass means some grass. somewhere.. is going to get mowed.

Remember logical data sets in statistics.. population inside of circle A, seperate population inside of cicle B.. and Circle C encompases circle A & B.. A= (grass)lawn.. B= (grass)pasture C = any grass.. Thus A&B...

soundguy

Must be a duck.

 

[Egon]

Must be a duck.

Or a "Canard" or??

 

[Soundguy]

The operating manual also suggests to warm up the oil in hydro for about 20 to 40 minutes during freezing weather. Don't know if geared tractors needs such long warm up too.
Needless to say the tractor is troublefree so far after 70 hours of hard FEL work.

A couple minutes at most.. and usually.. none.. is what I do for my gear jobs... course.. it rarely gets lower than mid 20's here in florida..

soundguy

 

[pitt_md]

A couple minutes at most.. and usually.. none.. is what I do for my gear jobs... course.. it rarely gets lower than mid 20's here in florida..

soundguy

Here in Minnesota it's best to start it and walk away for a few minutes before trying to use it when -20 or colder. Actually when I think about it, it's best to stay inside.

 

[CrazyQ]

Here in Minnesota it's best to start it and walk away for a few minutes before trying to use it when -20 or colder. Actually when I think about it, it's best to stay inside.

I concur.

 

[CrazyQ]

Yes, if you will do a search there are great threads on R1 vs R4 tires as well as double piloted check valves vs no check valves, airplanes on conveyor belts, 4wd vs 2wd, 4wd ws MFWD. And if you can't find one, just post one with one of those titles. It'l grow like a Chia Pet on steroids.

Don't forget John Deere vs. Kubota!

 

[jake98]

I have TYM 330 HST. It is my first ractor so I don't have a good reference point. The tractor has both speed governor as well as cruise control so in that sense the PTO speed can be tied to certain constant ground speed.
As to the horse power loss issue. The wheel often start sliping even in FWD with diff locked before I run out of power.
There is a cost nobody mentioned so far: Complete oil change runs about 250 USD every 300 hours.
The operating manual also suggests to warm up the oil in hydro for about 20 to 40 minutes during freezing weather. Don't know if geared tractors needs such long warm up too.
Needless to say the tractor is troublefree so far after 70 hours of hard FEL work.

Redneck, Welcome to the thread. Your training is over. You have to do your own oil changes with the rest of us. (I'm trying to sound assertive)
I think the Kioti manual said 5 minutes on the warm up, 40 sounds a little long.
Jake ps make sure you unhook the clutch hook so that the oil pumps all over.

 

[Reg]

[Milwaukee?/QUOTE]

That's where the Beer comes from isn't it?

No,
although they would have you believe that it is so.

 

[Reg]

1. Price
2. Reliability
3. Amount of HP loss with HST
4. Ease and speed of use

I get to Part 3 of my opinion on the difference between Gear drive vs hydro and I must clarify that most of my opinions are formed around tractors in the below 50 hp category that the majority of people on this forum have and not the large single purpose tractors that may run all day without even a change in gears or speed.

Some have said that a 45 hp tractor will lose 5 pto hp with HST. First , I do not believe that the power loss is near that significant and it also depends on what implement you are using. If I am sitting still using a post hole digger on my tractor, I can not believe that just because I have HST that I have 5 hp less available to my phd.

I wonder how many of us even ever uses the full hp of our tractors. I know that I have never used my full hp yet. The closest that I ever come is when I am bushogging with my 6' cutter and I always run a couple hundred rpm less than needed for 540 rpm and I never bog down and get a great cut on my grass. When I am pulling my 7' disc, I spin my wheels in 4 wheel drive before I bog the motor down so extra hp wouldn't help me there. I guess what I am saying is that if I had a loss of a couple of hp I probably couldn't tell or wouldn't miss it anyway.

For anyone who has an L4400 gear drive, I wonder what function you can perform that I can not perform with my L4400HST?

Please observe that I am not saying that hydro is better than gear or vice versa. I am just adding my opinions to the discussion on the differences, or lack of, between gear vs hydro.

Not the point, not the right question.
You are insisting on comparing same/similar model with/without HST and different prices.
Try more tractor for same price without HST.

What can the owner of the LARGER tractor at the same price as your HST tractor do that you can't do, or can't do as easily/effectively/efficiently/quickly etc. ?

 

[Reg]

Im not sure your "whole" point can be stated without contradicting itself, but let me give it a try:"I wouldnt buy a HST tractor if it was equal or better in every way at the same $ cost -- and I wouldnt try one out unless you paid me."


[A poor approximation of HST]
larry

I would put it more along the line of;
I already HAVE perfectly good dollar mouse traps and while those appear to offer some convenience in a number of areas I intend to stick with what I have and what I know.
My mouse population is already so low that accepting some of your's on free trial for 3 months wouldn't produce meaningful results.
I am unwilling to take my existing traps out of service long enough for the population to recover to where it was when I bought this place JUST to put those traps in and see how quickly they reduce the population to what it is now.
Not going through it.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Well, let's see how this works. First, you try to summarize my stance in this matter. Then I, the one who you are trying to summarize, say that you have failed to do so accurately AND explain very clearly and precisely how you have failed to do so, you simply counter with the yes-you-did/no-you-didn't argument....for the sake of brevity.

If you are going to contend that I don't know what my own point is then it is incumbent on you to provide the evidence. And posting your inaccurate assessment in bold red letters doe not make it true.

Don't expect me or anyone else accept it just because you say so. If you wish to defend your point, do so by addressing mine. Otherwise, my explanation stands.

I am not going to "contend" that you do not know your point. I do, however state that your hypotheticals are inconsistent with it and that exaggerated comparison is one of the reasons.

Having seen your responses to good council prevalent in the thread, I have been brief and blunt in order to express the situation w/o entering the morass. I will not waste time in specific debate, as I can see that there could be no resolution.
larry

 

[tallyho8]

Not the point, not the right question.
You are insisting on comparing same/similar model with/without HST and different prices.
Try more tractor for same price without HST.

What can the owner of the LARGER tractor at the same price as your HST tractor do that you can't do, or can't do as easily/effectively/efficiently/quickly etc. ?

That was the point and the right question. That was my post on hp loss with HST. If you want to compare price see my post # 339 on price. The point on price is that I compared the best prices I could get on all models of Kubota form 40 to 50 hp. The price I paid for my 45 hp L4400HST was $3000 less than the best price I got for an L4740 49 hp gear drive. It was $2000 less than an M5040 50 hp gear drive and it was $900 cheaper than the MX5100DT 50 hp gear drive that doesn't even have a cup holder. So how could I have gotten a larger gear drive tractor with more hp for the same $? Don't say I could have got a 90 hp Chinese make for the same price. Lets compare apples to apples and Kubotas to Kubotas. You have to make up an imaginary 47 hp Kubota gear drive with an imaginary price to compare it to mine. Now if we're talking hypothetical tractors, we're going to have to talk hypothetical prices too!

 

[Soundguy]

What can the owner of the LARGER tractor at the same price as your HST tractor do that you can't do, or can't do as easily/effectively/efficiently/quickly etc. ?

Run a larger implement. If we are talking a pto gen. and the load rating of the gen is needed, and the tractor pto hp matches the gen's input for load.. then the smaler hst tractor ' Can't ' do it.

same with other ideas.. IE.. implements right on the edge of go vs no go.. a larger tractor may run them safely.. but not the slightly smaller tractor..

soundguy

 

[patrick_g]

for some of us simplicity is a valuable asset

I knew there must be a reason we all like you so much.

Masterdebater huh? A couple ways of winning are: Just don't quit and never admit the validity of an opposing view except in condescension (kinda like BOMBAST.) Alternatively you declare victory and leave the field, whatever the facts on the ground are and many will believe you won.

For the great unwashed... Yes, there is a Santa Clause and he drives HST. Also many HST equipped tractors have "cruise control" so your right leg doesn't fall off. Actually it is a feature that allows you to set the HST pedal position and then lock it in with a convenient control lever. On my tractor this does not control throttle as a true cruise would do but it does give a virtually 100% imitation of driving a geared tractor until you apply the brakes or move the HST pedal. Then the HST "HOLD" control releases and you revert to normal ops. Safer and easier to use than an actual geared tractor as a geared tractor does not automatically engage the clutch or pop the tranny into neutral because you hit the brakes but instead just keeps on truckin' even if you use the brakes. That is rarely an advantage (differential braking to aid a turn?)

Is ANYONE actually struggling to understand why starters were mentioned? A while back I suggested that electric starters, pneumatic tires, and electric lights are similar in nature to the "old fashioned" gear box and anyone using them while protesting in favor of geared tractors was not being consistent and was a poser, not the real thing.

I stopped short of any comments about plowing with a bent stick instead of those new fangled unneeded steel things.

********Remember logical data sets in statistics.. population inside of circle A, seperate population inside of cicle B.. and Circle C encompases circle A & B.. A= (grass)lawn.. B= (grass)pasture C = any grass.. Thus A&B...

soundguy ********

...and never once mentioned modus ponens!!!

Pat

 

[Reg]

That was the point and the right question. That was my post on hp loss with HST. If you want to compare price see my post # 339 on price. The point on price is that I compared the best prices I could get on all models of Kubota form 40 to 50 hp. The price I paid for my 45 hp L4400HST was $3000 less than the best price I got for an L4740 49 hp gear drive. It was $2000 less than an M5040 50 hp gear drive and it was $900 cheaper than the MX5100DT 50 hp gear drive that doesn't even have a cup holder. So how could I have gotten a larger gear drive tractor with more hp for the same $? Don't say I could have got a 90 hp Chinese make for the same price. Lets compare apples to apples and Kubotas to Kubotas. You have to make up an imaginary 47 hp Kubota gear drive with an imaginary price to compare it to mine. Now if we're talking hypothetical tractors, we're going to have to talk hypothetical prices too!

We entered hypothetical space a while ago, so might as well continue.
Hypo owners, hypo tasks, etc.

Doesn't the HEFTIER discounts on the hydro you got kinda say they have a problem unloading them ?

Asian originals vs Japanese vs JD green Asian vs NH blue Asian.... world economy tangents, etc.
Cummins, Yanmar and Mitsubishi base design engines manufactured under license in Korea.
Indeed we can compare hybrid apples to hybrid apples, but they look more like oranges than pears.

If you INSIST on same make/model comparison I guess the fixed expenditure answer is in whatever useful implement could have been bought with the out the door savings of a same make/model gear vs hydro.
For the (hypothetical) customer who buys the tractor and all implements at once that doesn't apply, but for most of us we are either a tractor size larger or an implement (or two) ahead at any point in time for the same outlay.
I try to buy implements in descending order of value (usefulness/price), I would guess most of us do, so the gear-heads are most ahead early on.

 

[WilliamBos]

Run a larger implement. If we are talking a pto gen. and the load rating of the gen is needed, and the tractor pto hp matches the gen's input for load.. then the smaler hst tractor ' Can't ' do it.

same with other ideas.. IE.. implements right on the edge of go vs no go.. a larger tractor may run them safely.. but not the slightly smaller tractor..

soundguy

nor can a gear tractor of the same hp as the smaller hst tractor you talk of. if all numbers are equal at the pto between the gear vs the hst, you are at no advantage with the gear over the hst.

It would be like discussing Powershifts vs CVT..... endless!!